I am interested in switching from my 1050 holley style carb to fuel injection. there seems to be alot of choices. I see that T.A performance offers a type of fuel injection that requires me to send in my intake and install fuel rails. I am also very interested in the F.A.S.T efi conversion kit. if i went in this direction do i still need the fuel rails that T.A performance offers? are there other choices that i need to consider? my set up is a 455, stage 2 TA heads with roller rockers, a TA "gibson" cam, headers, 5 speed manual, 373 gears.
whats your power level at or plan to be? do you want a 1500-2400 kit or a 3 to 5 k kit for TBI i'd reccoment the holley avenger? tbi ...can be upgraded to the hp series later down the road.. or check out msds new tbi unit. for mpfi holly domintor/hp series or accell kit
TA I bet wouldn't have any problem upgrading an SPX. Who knows, maybe they'll give you the contact information of the guy that actually does the conversion. I just bought the SPX with fuel rails and injector bungs from TA, didn't get the whole kit. If you have the ability to weld aluminum and are a decent fabricator you could drill and weld your own. set up. I plan on doing a drill and epoxy injector bungs set up on a performer intake I have. As for ECU, consider my two cents on the MegaSquirt for obvious reasons. I have around 35,000 miles on mine now. I could probably duplicate the system on my car for ~$700 intake (yikes! I think that's what I paid anyways) ~$250 MegaSquirt II (MS1 is $203, only thing is doesn't do is IAC control) ~$64+$85 Relay board plus relay board cable (optional) ~$67 Labeled made wiring harness. ~$59 Jimstim engine simulator (for assembly and testing) ~$400 8 42lb/hr injectors ($300 for 32lb/hr, which I ran until the aluminum heads and roller cam upgrade) ~$250 LC-1 Wideband O2 ~$5.50 Tuning cable ~$65 Map sensor upgrade for second barometer,etc (optional) ~$467 for a squarebore 1,000cfm Edelbrock throttle body (there are cheaper single valve ones that will work, or a carb with a $15-$30 throttle position sensor tied to it) $145 fuel pressure regulator. ~$110 Ford fuel pump (I ran one straight from the junkyard for a couple years, $30) ~$30 for coolant and air temp sensors new, need pigtails though (I just grabbed these from the junkyard with pig tails) $30 in soldering iron and solder. $30 in various electrical parts, connectors, etc. Grand total $2,727.50 Prices have gone up a bit since I did mine =/ I originally didn't have $400 injectors and I didn't pay $110 for a fuel pump so I had around $2500 in mine, which I think is what I've been saying in any other EFI threads I've commented in. But this set up works for pretty much 100HP-650+HP, and will work well beyond that with a fuel pump and injector upgrade (and maybe throttle body?). I'm going to call the fuel return line plumbing a push on cost as some kind of modification to the fuel system will likely have to be done for any system. But I only really have around 20 feet of 5/16th fuel line and a few miscellaneous plumbing parts added since I use the stock 3/8ths fuel line. On your car, I'd investigate using the 5/16th evap lines from the carbon canister (that's probably long gone?) as the return line. Be aware, there is supposed to be a restriction down to a pin hole size some where in that line, I think it's on the gas tank sending unit, but it could be in the line somewhere back by the gas tank. In retro-spect, I'd probably of used this line to simplify plumbing. I'm not going to debate any other systems, just laying out there what I have. I want to do my Centurion on the cheap by using a performer intake and epoxy injector bungs, a Q-jet throttle body, possibly skip the relay board, and get the cost down by well over $1,000. If you have any questions just ask, I'll be watching this thread
Some info on V-8 Buick (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) Dear Dan and V-8 Buick members, Well there are some choices, but there aren't as many as it would seem. When I looked into this, the number of choices where someone had actually made it work on a Buick engine wasn't so large. I started looking at the TA Performance system too. But it is expensive and I didn't find anyone on V-8 Buick who had gone that route and offered a review. It is a lot of money to spend without some glowing testimonials. Actually F.A.S.T as two product lines. The EZ-EFI system is a throttle-body unit, basically a replacement for your carburetor: http://www.fuelairspark.com/ezefi/default.asp. They also make a sequential EFI system: http://www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-'EFI Kits'-0.aspx but they only have kits for Chevy and Ford engines. Because I'm having an engine built by Jim Weise in Minnesota but have to have it put on the car in California, I decided to go with the F.A.S.T. EZ-EFI system in part because of favorable reviews on this board like this: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=181640. If you can do more of the work yourself, systems like MegaSquirt will probably be less expensive and more satisfying because you'll have better control over the outcome. It seems like this area is still evolving so you may find additional choices. However, you will find yourself having to be a pioneer of sorts. Best of luck with your project! Cheers, Edouard :beer P.S. Definitely check out all the discussions on EFI in the High Tech for Old Iron forum. This topic comes up periodically and you size up the "territory" very quickly by going over what has been already said.
Bizno... i am currently making 400HP at the wheels as dyno'd. eleganche... i really dont want to be a pioneer simply because as i am prety good at bolting on parts, i am prety bad at diagnosing problems. i will look into the megasquirt. silverbuick. i have an old SP intake, not an SPX, which i have had ceramicoated. i guess i should state my goals with this possible upgrade. i would like to have a little better fuel economy , easier starting (as i have starting issues), and of corse a coolness factor.
I'm going the Megasquirt route.... @SilverBuick: what software do you use (Megatune, Megatunix...etc)? Do you plan to go to Megasquirt III for any of your cars? I have two Megasquirt I controllers I built six years ago, I just recently tested them and they work fine but unfortunately there's no upgrade path to the Megasquirt III for the early boards. I'd go with the Megasquirt III if I was buying a kit today.
Dan There are 2 basic systems. The Throttle Body Injection (TBI) is the easiest where you simply replace the carburetor with the TBI unit and you control the fuel electronically and your present ignition system continues to control spark timing. Then there is the port fuel injection which will require you to send the intake manifold to have injector bungs and fuel rail installed. TA can do that service for you. With this system you can still control fuel only or use the system to control spark also. Depending on which port injection system you choose you can have the option of doing a distributorless "Coil On" configuration also. Which route would you like to go and we can proceed form there Paul
I am using EFIanalytic's TunerStudio. I am running MS1/extra on my Thunderbird with a TBI, fuel only control. I am running MS2/extra on my Skylark, fuel and spark. Both are 3.0 boards. In the works on the OHC Pontiac engine I'm going to run an MS3 for not just the sequential injection, but so I can balance the AFR's on the individual cylinders. Which will help the engine reach it's peak potential because port lengths and shapes vary the AFR's vary cylinder to cylinder in almost every enigne. MS3 allows a fuel trim for each cylinder. Only worth the cost IMO if you are looking for that last degree of HP. I have a 3.57 MS1 board that should be upgradable to MS3, or I'll use the 3.57 on the T-bird and convert a 3.0 board over. If you aren't using an IAC (just use a simple high/low idle valve) then you can't be the value of an MS1. Also if you have some wide band readings or know what your AFR's were at peak HP, it's easy to create an AFR table based on the dyno info and the EFI will match it.
Good info Paul. Just remember, most of the TBI units out there don't do spark. Even the new MSD will do it only when you add another box, they conveniently forget to tell you that. And don't underestimate the value of being able to control spark. The Accel Thruster TBI with wideband runs about $2700 complete. That like some others, (i.e. Holley HP) allows you to use the same ECM if you ever want to go the multiport route. That's a big convenience. And it does spark, nitrous, fan control and converter lockup and A/C clutch interruption. If you're the least bit computor savvy, I always recommend downloading the manufactureres software. Look for ease of navigation and the amount of calibrations available that pertain to drivability, i.e. Transient fueling etc. You'll find that some are severly lacking.
Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) Dear Dan and V-8 Buick high-tech gurus, Well, if you are going to ask . . . . . you are likely to be sorry!! o No: There is another fork in the road before comparing throttle body versus sequential fuel injection. There is two different ways to determine the air-fuel mixture. By far the most common technique is called "Speed-Density" This technique computes the amount of air going into your engine from various parameters like engine speed and manifold vacuum pressure. This is a fairly precise calculation but . . . (remember the devil in the details?) It requires some adjustment of lookup tables to make everything work out correctly. This can be done by a human - precise but tedious, or by software - easy but obviously less precise. One of the main arguments for a system like EZ-EFI is that it is self-tuning. However, the price you pay is that the self-tuning may not make the best use of your car's potential. Other systems such as the Megasquirt family and Accel EFI allow the user to tune the engine manually using a laptop or equivalent. The very advantage is also the curse. You have more control but . . . you have more control to make mistakes in. :grin: Obviously, if the software you are using is "smarter" mistakes are less frequent. However, experience around V-8 Buick suggests that you need to get a "feel" for the process. If this sort of thing feels like exactly the sort of tinkering you'd enjoy then you have a new potential hobby. If not - you've got problems. If money is no object, then having a professional tuner and station will most likely get more out of your engine than any amount of your amateurish tinkering will get you. One theme reported on V-8 Buick is that if you tinker too much you'll make things worse and - how you know when you've tinkered "just enough"? Back at the beginning of this post was the other fork in the road. Mass Flow systems. In this case sensors actually measure the amount of air mass flowing into the EFI system. This in principle should eliminate a lot of the guesswork. Sadly the only system on the market is produced by a company called (surprise) Mass-Flo: http://www.massfloefi.com/. However, this company is using some very dated electronics and I couldn't find anybody who has used their product on a big-block Buick engine. So I gave up on these guys - basically because I needed a safe choice in a complex predicament. There is a slanted article toward Mass Flow systems here: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/electronic_fuel_injection/index.html. Still, it may help you understand some of the concepts and make sense of the EFI vocabulary. Or, after reading all this . . . you might decide a carb isn't so bad after all!! :laugh: Best of luck . .. . it t'aint easy!! Cheers, Edouard :beer
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) Pretty much they all get fuel into the engine at least as well as the carb and all are capable of more consistent starting and keeping in tune than a carb, some have timing control abilities, some do not. Some have upper horsepower limits, just watch for that. Then some are bolt on and go and others are more hands on. Like Mark says, if you can get your hands on the tuning software for various ones, you can check out how all the user settings are laid out and like Edouard says, more control can mean more places to screw up a setting, but it's really no different than how many settings can be screwed up on a carb (for proof look at the mixing shop board =P ) only you don't have to spill gas everywhere to change the settings!
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) Dan Look at this, looks too easy? http://www.atomicefi.com/AtomicInstallationVideo.aspx
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) That's why Accel introduced the Thruster. For lack of a better term they "dumbed" down the Gen 7, however most all the features of the Gen 7 are still accessible with the Thruster box, you just use the Gen 7 software instead. But one thing to remember, a lot of those screens don't need to be fooled with, hence the lack of accessibility on the Thruster. But on the flipside they're in there in the event you do need them and can add tremendous improvements in drivability vs something that doesn't have them. And when I sell a system I sell it with a base program and help. I do alot via the internet, I can change calibrations and email the changes back to you to download into the ECM. You can't do that with all of them.
Dan To start with, any EFI system (TBI or MultiPort) will require a high pressure fuel pump at or in the fuel tank. In the tank is preferred because the fuel helps keep the pump cool for longer life. Base or minimum pressure is 43 PSI at the injectors for proper operation. The TBI is the easiest and cheapest to install because it simply replaces the carburetor. The down side, as stated in some of the above posts, is most models have limited programmability and most models do not control spark. MultiPort Fuel Injection: With MPFI the sky is the limit especially if you are an outside the box thinker. As you can tell from the previous posts, one of the deciding factors is your willingness to experiment and learn the technology. If you are comfortable with a laptop and want to have fun then go for it. Most of the systems can be examined online by downloading their software and the installation instructions. This way you can get a feel for the system and also see if it has all the features and controls you need. It's also important if there is a tech available (Like Mark) that can give you a kick start and be readily available to help. The main advantage is the ability to control both fuel and spark based on all engine parameters including knock and the ability to control many of the things external to the engine such as transmission, radiator fans ect. In sequential mode individual cylinder tuning can be done. There is the option to go distributorless or "Coil On" which gets rid of distributor phasing problems especially for wide swing timing when turbocharging. For spark control it is far easier to make a change in the spark table than to recurve a distributor. This will let you experiment with timing all day with just the touch of the keyboard. The software will also show you real time, exactly what number from the table it is presently using so you know where to make changes on both the fuel and spark tables. Then there is the list of controls specific to power adders and racing and the list goes on. You get the picture. The other reason for the advent of MPFI is to remove the restriction on intake manifold design where the intake runners have to converge where the carburetor is located. Now better designs could be incorporated and still be packaged under a hood. This gives the DIY guy a chance to create a wild design for the WOW factor or do something like Velocity Stacks for show. If you do 2 injectors per port you can run a dual fuel system with pump gas in one and race gas in the other. When running a turbo or supercharger the system will automatically switch from pump to racing gas as the boost exceeds the limit for pump gas octane. Anyway this is just the tip and you can get as creative as you want. In our shop we do not use carburetors! The down side is it cost more. In post #3 TheSilverBuick took the time to list one of the least expensive setups. As always I hope this helps Paul P.S. Which Gibson cam are you using? The 107 or the 110
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) does the thruster work with blowthrough...or need any blowthrough modsbto the throttlebody
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) The Thruster supports up to 40 psi of boost and it is just a matter of selecting the right Map sensor. If you are doing 15 psi or less you will need a 2 Bar Map sensor. You will also need to use a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator with the system. Mark can verify and give more info. Paul
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) yea, I knew about the needed xbar map sensors which dictates the amount of supported boost..the only system I knew of that supports blow through out the box was the powerjection3 with a map sensor.others like holley or fast need modifications to the throttlebody itself along with the Xbar map sensor
EFI terminology clarification questions (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) Hi Paul, Dan, and V-8 Buick high-tech gurus, First, Thanks Paul for explaining the difference between throttle-bodies and MultiPort fuel injection. That was Dan's actual question, but . . . by the time I had explained everything else - I forgot!! o No: Second, I'm realizing that I have some nagging misconceptions that others might be having as well. So, just in case I'll toss them out. All MultiPort fuel injection systems have injectors in the intake manifold. However, a Sequential MultiPort fuel injection system goes one step further by only injecting into a cylinder that is about open the intake valve - correct? This requires some sort of a timing device like the ACCEL triggering distributor - right? Assuming I got this much right, I'm confused by the term: "tuned port fuel injection." Does "tuned port" refer to some sort specific modifications to the intake manifold that somehow "tunes" the airflow with the injection, or does this refer to modifications in the cylinder head itself? Wikipedia doesn't discuss this - can't trust anybody these days!! :laugh: and Google generates some very puzzling hits. I fear manufacturers are misusing the term as well. As along as I'm dumping my confusions, what is "gasoline direct injection?" Does that involve a new opening into the cylinder combustion chamber? The Wikipedia article mentions some interesting economy and emission advantages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection. Okay, so I've tossed out my confusions . . . o No: Can somebody Learn me about all this!! :Smarty: Thanks in advance!! :TU: Cheers, Edouard :beer
Re: Remember - you're askin' . . . (Re: Which Fuel Injection?) Good info Paul!! No other mods necessary in order to use boost besides what's been mentioned, map sensor etc. But remember the injectors on the Accel TBI are above the throttle plates. While that gives better atomization it has some limitations on injector size, they get a little "misty' above the blades. But both PJ anf FST will sell you just their thorttle bodies, then you can put any controller you want on it. But the Thruster ECM offers a few advantages over some of the others, boost control, nitrous tables, and the ability to run in TBI, 2 TBI's, Staggered batch, and Sequential. And without spark control like on the PJIII or FAST EZ you can't pull out spark under boost unless you get another ignition box (i.e. MSD Digital 6 etc), kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? Yes the only thing needed if you were to go sequential in multiport mode is another pick up. You can either use the Accel Dual sync or a regular distributor and crank trigger. Tuned port is the term used to explain that all runners are the same length and sized correctly for the application. Direct injection is directly into the combustion chamber under extremely high pressure, about 2400psi. Even more advantages than standard EFI.
