What's the Deal with the buick/Rover head for TA Performance?

yes the easy and obvious way.

I plan to pursue a rover top end sbb350 soon after my lark is done

sanderson headers,
rover heads/intake
custom cam
oliver 6.300 rods
.100 crank offset grind
.060 over pistons
370 cubed AL headeed sbb..thinking 67 4door lark

 

the 340 can be bored to 350 size easily. what is the benefit of using the 350 block if everything on the top end is 340/rover stuff? the 300-340 use the same basic design block as a 350 so i highly doubt strength is an issue. o No:

 

yea i know it'd only take a .050 overbore piston..well actually .050 on the block and .010 3.8/350 piston
.060 overbore and .100 offset grind gets ya a 360 ha
but i dunno..we'll see what I end up doing after i finish the tt355

 

Not the best news on the cam. I don't think I'd try using a 340 cam, the center lifters will be offset from the lobes nearly 3/8" and I don't think the lobe would last. You'd get it to run, but how long it would run well is the big question. So welding up the cam bearing journals doesn't buy us anything if it is going to be that expensive to do it. If we were talking about welding up the lobe circles of the lobes that needed to be different it might make sense. So far I don't think anyone has looked at just exactly what that would take in terms of which lobes would need more metal and just how much would be needed where. There is nothing magical about a camshaft, it's just a chunk of case hardened cast iron. Typically for wear surfaces or rubbing contact dissimilar metals are used in order to prevent galling, but unless I'm mistaken both the cam and the lifter bodies are made from cast iron, with the only thing preventing galling and wear being a thin layer of case hardening on the cam lobes. (This does change the metalurgical grain of the metal, allowing it to act like a dissimilar metal.) Theoretically welding up the lobes with nickel rod or another dissimilar metal would do the trick and should work fine if you can either start with an unground blank or prevent warpage in some way. In the old days guys would even shape cam lobes entirely by hand in their own workshops. We've become entirely too dependent on paying other people for ready solutions, and incapable of thinking and doing for ourselves. Micro-inch precision is nice, but it is far from essential. Even then, if you can rough out a warp free usable blank someone like Charles can easily finish it up precisely.

As for the billet approach, it might make sense to talk to Art Getz. He had a small run of blanks made up for roller cams to fit the Rover engines, maybe a dozen of them I think, and I'm pretty sure he didn't spend $1500 each on them. So just because one or two of the conventional approaches don't sound promising, that doesn't mean it is time to stop looking. What it usually means is that it is time to start. Know someone with a lathe? Got some spare time? A little creativity is all it takes to end up with something close enough that a cam grinder can finish it.

JB

 

yea, more pricey then I thought
i take it Art is Roverman?

 

Yep. I think he sold some of those blanks and still has some left. Naturally they would also work with the 300 and 340. I don't recall what he was using for lifters but he did have something figured out on that. Anyway he would have a pretty good idea as to what it would take to get something going on the 350/340 combo.

JB

 

Here is Art's reply:
I had "Nachi" at Contreras Cams,(714) 300-5509, make (10) blanks, NOT an endorsement. 350 bu uses (1) size bearing ? Fast track for (1) cam would probably be Comp Cams, using powdered metal blank machined at 30c hardness(core), post hardened and finish ground.

Sean, Art was the guy who wanted the template, but I'm pretty sure he is working with rover motors and the pan is different. Anyway I think he said he had steel on hand to make 4ea 3/4" thick girdles.

JB

 

Sorry for resurecting this dead horse,but..... are you sure that there would be a mis-alignment of 3/8" of the roller to lobe? If so,the roller probably would have less than 1/16" of contact,and for sure would fail very quickly,probably wouldn't even adjust.

Has anyone lined up a 350 and a 215/300/340 cam to confirmed the misalignment?If all the lobes line up,it should be good. Maybe some one that sells these heads can take the 2 cams off the shelf and take a look(Mike,hint,hint)that would be appreciated,and thanks in advance.

If this is not the case,why hasn't anyone thought about custom cam bearings? Way back in the day,some one (can't rember who) made and sold bronze cam bearings for one of the Buick engines,the 455 maybe to make up for the weak oiling system when it was raced. I think TA or Poston use to sell the left over NOS bearings until they were depleted.Anyway,those won't work,but,that tells me that bronze will.Its a lot easier to machine bronze than trying to weld cast iron,just a thought.


Derek
'

 

Thought I would bump this up,looks like it got pushed down to fast for my last post to be seen.

Wanted to know if Mike from TA could compare those 2 cams?(read above post) Thanks

 

Not to be a downer but I do not think there is any good reason to put Rover or 300/340 heads on a Buick 350 block. Why not go with a 340 or 300 block? The 349 cube stroker engine has already been proven using the 300 block. Or go with a Rover 4.6 block and the Merlin real steel heads. To me that is a much better bang for the buck engine vs an exotic 350 with TA rover heads.

http://www.realsteel.co.uk/section1.pdf

About $2000 half way down the page.

There are some good flow numbers on these heads, they are very good!

 

Nice cylinder heads.

The question was more of a curiosity question related to this thread,I just wanted to know IF it could be done. I am by no means planning on doing it,I was late to the conversation for my input,and people lost interest before I got to this. I may never know,oh well,life goes on.

 

Any new info on these heads?

I know TA is a small opperation, but over four years and still nothing?

 

What are people wanting to know? We're producing the heads, they come and go out of stock depending on how long the foundry takes to deliver castings and if we have a machinist capable of running them. I dont know current availablility, but we were machining some a month or so back.

 

Thats pretty much what I wanted to know.

I havent been active in a while and checked in to find out how these heads were comeing along, and nothing.

No new threads on here, no new posts on this thread, hell no mention on the T/A websiteo No:

Have they been track/dyno tested yet?

 

My home modded Rover V8 with M238cam made 393hp@5560rpm.. I use stock home ported heads..
And i spoke to John Eales.. He say that TA-heads will give approx 460hp on full race 5.2litre engine.. His CNC heads same bottom end with M256cam made 422hp.. :bla: He estimated that TA-heads are worth up to extra 10% any engine..
And i estimate average performance woluld be better if use Rover heads, more low down torque..?

ps, why to use such big valves? If 43mm rover stage 4 valves wont resist flow..

 

Welcome and thanks for sharing your dyno numbers. Is there another forum where the details of your build are posted. Which block are you using (4.6?) and how many litres is the build? Thanks

 

Well, i live in Finland.. Far from you..

My engine is home build 5.2litre using 4.6l top hat liner block.. (i bought broken bottom end from RPIV8)

Our local roverfriends forum.. We spoke Finland, so you might not be understand.. Some picks..
My car/engine
http://www.roverfriends.fi/foorumi/viewtopic.php?t=3733&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Engine bay..



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

well thanks finland ! interesting pics - and a little change of pace and different insight can not hurt . now if i could just find the damn language barrier eliminator ap on my computer ! stop by anytime .
so whatdoya think - "international/rover" section for V8buick ? and no , not international like in tractor .

 

Now that's the way to do it!

EFI with stacks, No worries about making some single plane manifold fit.
Individual ignition coils.

No need to speak the language to watch the vidoes. Burnouts forever. 0-60 in 4.9 seconds

Thanks Finland

Paul

 

Well i have been following this topic a while, and i like to know is those TA-heads any good or worth of money..? They are expensive if i order those in Finland.. approx 4300$ inc vat, tax/toll etc stupid payments.. :Brow:

Ian @ wild cat engineering is retirement now, and automotivecomp will make those wild cat heads, blocks etc. But those dyno figures is not so impressive in my mind. I ask couple of week ago those 5.0l engine specs. It has got 10.7CR, 47mm crossover throttle bodies, M248 mechanical camshaft, more radical than mine. And engine will give only 398hp@5950rpm and only 340FTLB@5600rpm, when mine pull out over 406FTLB@3560rpm.. and hole rev range over 367FTLB start from +2000rpm up to +5000rpm..

http://www.automotivecomp.com/v8engines.htm

I dont know whats wrong with this wild cat engine, if i will pay +10 000 + vat, i will hope it will push at least 450hp.. You can get cheaper same results with a home build.
Like John Eales say, wild cat heads port gas speed is far to small, and TA-heads need lot of work to get impressive readings.. :spank:
We can prove a good results on a rover heads..
I will try to take 4-410hp next summer, change new cam, serpentine timing cover, piper timing chain kit as JP-performance is piece of sh..t. + etc new small pieces.. Dry sump will give extra bhp, but too expensive to me..

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

And forget to say.

My head flow figures. Exhaust measured without pipe, pipe will give extra 10cfm without flange/bolt on.
0.1" 61 63cfm
0.2" 119 100
0.3" 155 135
0.4" 161 153
0.5" 166 141 Same as my cam lift
0.6" 170 137
0.7" 171 136

We also tested Real steel Merlin F85 heads same bench, they flow 5cfm more than my inlet. And my exhaust overflow merlin near 20cfm.. We bought this Merlin head to John Eales, he measured near 180cfm readings.. So slightly calibration difference.. I do not like Merlin heads, casting is poor, port floor is different height than others, valves sit different height approx 1mm. I fit those head to my friend 4.6l engine.. Not quality at all..