What kind of rings to use in a 425

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by Brian, Jan 5, 2004.

  1. Brian

    Brian Displaced VA Hillbilly

    What kind of rings does everyone recommend to use in a high performance 425 build up? I am building a 425 for my '65 GS right now and need to decide whether to use moly rings or the stock cast iron material rings.
     
  2. JohnK

    JohnK Gas Guzzling Infidel

    I'd always heard you could use the good rings from a 455 since the bore is the same, in this case the moly.
     
  3. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

  4. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    OK I tried it and it is gone.

    I condensed what he had to say, this was the general idea:

    Anyways, according to this guy, cast rings seat fast but wear the cylinders more.

    Moly rings seat quickly and have less drag, so he likes them.

    Chrome/moly rings take too long to seat and require a rough hone.

    Gapless rings are not worth the extra cost for the minimul amount of performance you could gain by using them.



    :Smarty:
     
  5. Dale

    Dale Sweepspear

    I used Moly rings in my 425 also.
    No problems to report in the 7-10,000 miles I put on them before selling the car.
    :3gears:
     
  6. Brian

    Brian Displaced VA Hillbilly

    Thanks for the info! I took the advice and ordered a set of moly rings. The guts of the engine are going off to be balanced later this week and I had to have the right away since their weight adds into the weight of the pistons when they balance the assembly.
     
  7. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    caution

    Brian- I hope I'm not coming off as a :Smarty: but I just wanted to warn you of some things that have caused me problems in the past where my 425 was concerned:

    Cheep ring compressors don't work too good. Use a good one.

    Assuming you are having your cam bearings replaced, make sure you can turn your camshaft freely by hand with the gear installed. Give the shop your cam, even an old one, so they can fit the bearings. If they are too tight they WILL spin out and give you much grief.

    Also, if you are having valve guides replaced, make sure they don't stick up too high before assembling the heads or turning the engine. Assuming you are running a stock or mild cam, Intake, which usually is the only one that gets the teflon seal, should stick up around 11/16" from the small spring seat. The exhaust which should not get a teflon seal should stick up around 7/8".


    :beer

    Last year, if I would have started my engine the way the machine shop thought my 425 should be, I would have 16 bent pushrods and some spun cam bearings.
    That happenned to me about 25 years ago on my first 425. We couldn't figure out why no oil was getting to the heads. It turned out that the front cam bearing, which directs oil pressure to the rocker arms, had spun in the block- that caused me a lot of extra work.

    Good luck with your rebuild.:TU:
     
  8. Brian

    Brian Displaced VA Hillbilly

    Thanks for the info. I do need to buy a better ring compressor than I have--I don't think it will open up enough for the 425 pistons anyway.
    I ran into the valve guide problem when I built the hot 300 for my '64 skylark--I have roller rockers and and a .512" lift solid lifter cam in it and I had to cut the top of the guides way down to allow for all that lift.
    I am going to buy a complete set of the big valve heads for my 425 from Carmen Faso, so they should be ready to go when I get them--I am going to get my cam from him too. I don't have anyone around here I trust to do head work--I always take them to a guy I know in VA, or do the work myself.
    I know what you mean about fitting the camshaft to the bearings--I had a 300 one time that didn't fit right when they put the bearings in and the guys at this machine shop worked quite awhile honing one of the bearings enought to get the came to turn like it should.
    I will have it back and fourth to the machine shop several times before I am done--my next door neighbor runs the place, so he just puts it in his company truck and takes it with him. Right now I am concentrating on getting it balanced, then I will order the cam, put the cam bearings in, and then assemble the short block.
    Do you recommend using a high volume oil pump in the nailhead? I am going to run the crap out of this thing once I get it together (it is going in a '65 GS 4-speed car with a 3.73 rear and this engine has a factory dual quad setup). I have a high volume pump in all of my 300's, but that is a completely different engine (pump in the front cover like on a 455).
     
  9. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    There's no such thing as a high VOLUME pump for a nailhead. There is not enough space in the oil pan to accomodate a thicker pump. However, you can increase the PRESSURE by inserting a 1/8"washer under the releif spring. More pressure will bring a little more volume. Carmen has those, I put one in mine.

    Nailheads have an excellent oiling system, so high volume isn't necessary. I'm running synthetic oil in mine this time around, however.

    When I had mine balanced, they wanted to charge me extra $120 for "heavy metal" to put into the crank. I took it elsewhere and they repositioned the weight plugs on the balancer instead. Mine runs smoother now than it ever did. Some balancers are different and don't have those weights in them, they are drilled. Also, make sure you tighten the balancer well or else it may crack-common nailhead problem.

    :Smarty:
     
  10. Brian

    Brian Displaced VA Hillbilly

    Actually, on my car there would be plenty of room for a high volume oil pump--the '65 and '66 Skylark GS have a large rear sump pan and there is a good 6 inches below the oil pump with that pan. I know what you mean about the Riveria/Electra center sump pan--it actually has a dimple in the pan to give clearance for the oil pump. This 425 had one of those pans on it when I got it--in fact I would love to sell it cheap if someone wants it.
    Where the high volume pump would be good is if I ever decide to spend the money and put a set of those roller rockers that are coming out on my engine. Roller rockers bleed off a ton of oil pressure and a high volume pump helps with that situation--I know I had to do it in my '64 300 to get enough pressure with the roller rockers.
    Thanks for the info.--I will talk to Carmen about the mods. to the stock pump when I call to order the other parts I need.
    Where did you buy your fuel pump? I would like to find a correct AC fuel pump for my car. Experience has shown me that the aftermarket fuel pumps you buy from NAPA, Federated, etc. don't flow and much or generate as much pressure. With the 2-4's, I need the best pump I can get. I definitely want to stay with a mechanical pump--goal is for this car to look stock and take it to shows.
     
  11. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel

    You will be happy with the heads from Carmen. They are beautiful. The springs are tricky to seat, so do do what I did and take one out to look at the port! I had the local shop do a set, and they do that-set...on the shelf. Carmen's are better in every way. One of the sets is on my 4-speed wildcat 401 and its running very well. I also had Carmen pick a cam. Luck to ya,
     
  12. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    I never knew that about roller rockers using more oil. That's probably because I never got into building motors for racing.

    I don't know why they don't make a high volume pump for the nailhead, perhaps too much drag on the cam gear? I never considered that your pan is different.

    I used a '64 carter fuel pump, the kind that you can take apart. I like those better. Tha a/c type never lasted for me. They get noisy after a while and lose volume. So far the Carter works just as good if not better than the a/c type, and I have two fours also. I found a rebuild kit for it for around $30 from a place called "cellars", I have to find their web address. Cars wants like 3 times as much for the same kit.

    If you're that worried about flow, why not use an electric pump?

    :3gears:
     
  13. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

  14. DugsSin

    DugsSin Well-Known Member

    Doesn't Carmen also offer the larger diameter oil pick-up tube?
    Did either of you run a larger fuel line from the tank? Sounds like a few Thumping Nails are hitting the steets this Spring.
     
  15. Brian

    Brian Displaced VA Hillbilly

    I am kind of funny about stuff like putting on electric fuel pumps. I grew up in the world of building cars completely stock down to the hose clamps for AACA show. I have now built a few performance cars, but they look completely stock on the outside with the exception of maybe headers, flowmasters, and radial tires. That is my goal with this car. Putting on an electric fuel pump to me is crossing the line of the kind of car I am trying to build. Plus I think the noise they make is annoying--every car I have ever been in that had one I could hear the pump running all the time.
    Where can I come across one of the carter rebuildable fuel pumps for a 401/425? My car came from the factory with an AC pump that is the crimp sealed type that you can't take apart. I know my '64 Skylark has an AC pump on it that you can take apart and rebuild--I think they switched to the crimp sealed type on everything sometime mid-year '65.
    I wish I could have my car on the road by spring. By spring I will have the engine done and in the finished chasis, but then I have to do the body, which will take another 8 months or so (doing a complete frame-off restoration on this car).
     
  16. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    Where an old style pump goes, Carmen may have a few for cores, but will probably discourage you. He discouraged me, but I still stand by those older pumps for now. Mine has worked great for almost a year now, I'd sell you one if I had one. I'm sure somebody here does. Post it in the "parts wanted".

    I know what you mean about keeping things stock, I'm the same way. Nothing wrong with some stealth improvements though. Forget aaca shows, those guys are way too picky.

    I went to far with mine. I correctly plated the parts and blasted and painted everything to look like new. We drive this car a lot, we even took it to Flint last summer. Many people wonder why I went to such lengths with a car that has a motor in it that really doesn't belong there. The '66 hood is different also, but that's the way I want it- I like the R-i-v-i-e-r-a script on it and besides it goes better with the nailhead I guess.
     

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  17. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    I didn't know that. It couldn't hurt to have less restriction on the intake side of the pump.

    Where a larger line from the tank goes, that's a good idea too.

    I've ran mine wide open a few times and so far the delivery from the Carter pump is sufficient, and mine has the fuel return line going back to the tank from the gas filter to prevent vapor lock from the air cond.

    Think about it though, a stock pump should deliver at least a pint in 30 seconds. Can you imagine how much fuel you would use at that rate?:jd:
     
  18. Brian

    Brian Displaced VA Hillbilly

    Here is mine at the moment:
     

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  19. nailheadina67

    nailheadina67 Official Nailheader

    And I thought I went overboard. That looks fantastic!!!:beer
     
  20. VandaLL

    VandaLL The Buick Life

    parts

    hey guys (and gals?), just perusing the nailhead section hoping to learn more about these infamous engines.. if anyone knows of any 65's for sale (skylark, GS, wagon) pls let me know? thanks.

    anyways, i was just checking out craigslist for cars and came across this ad for a couple parts. i think they are in the bay area.. maybe someone would be interested:

    http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/22021259.html

    :)
     

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