I purchased a Viper Responder 350 2 way security system. I am installing this in my '65 Wildcat convertible. The other components I purchased to go with this are power lock actuators, 451M door lock relay module and digital tilt sensor. My car did not come with power locks, everything is aftermarket. My question is how to wire the power locks. The door lock relay has a 3 wire plug with small wires (red, green and blue) and then 5 larger wires. The small wire 3 wire plug merely plugs into the alarm brain and I assume receives a signal from the brain to lock/unlock the doors. Where do the other wires connect to? They are labeled as follows: Violet/Black-lock/unlock normally open #87 (this one is a single wire that feeds into an inline fuse that splits into two wires and then goes into the relay) Green/Black-lock output #30 Blue/Black-unlock output #30 White/Black-lock normally closed #87A Brown/Black-unlock normally closed 87A I know relays are heavy duty switches controlled by smaller switches and thats about all I know about relays. The lock actuator has a green wire and a blue wire. Then how do I wire the manual switches at the doors? I don't have any switches yet. How to you get a two position switch to reverse the polarity to the lock actuator.....a relay? Can I wire the manual switches through the alarm brain? If I can get past this I have other questions about other components I want to control with the alarm. Thanks, Rick
where did you come up with the words that are NOT in bold? Violet/Black-lock/unlock normally open #87 (this one is a single wire that feeds into an inline fuse that splits into two wires and then goes into the relay) Green/Black-lock output #30 Blue/Black-unlock output #30 White/Black-lock normally closed #87A Brown/Black-unlock normally closed 87A
The 5 wires are the power and switched outputs from the relays. There are a few different types of actuators, I'm assuming yours have a ground on the body and change direction by applying V+ to one of the two input wires. #87 Violet/black gets constant 12V power. Blue/black goes to the actuators to unlock them, green/black goes to the lock side of the solenoids. Some actuators are 3-wire, some are 4-wire and will use the white/black and brown/black wires. The numbers are the terminals of the Bosch style relay used for the lock circuit, see the attached diagram below.
Pop the cover off of your relay and trace out the contacts with respect to your wires- if you go by answer #2 you will run afoul somewhere- you should not have power going in on 87 as described- whatever your fused red lead is/is the supply for what that relay is controlling. If you have to,you can get sockets and ice-cube style relays that are clear so that its all out in the open. These can be gotten pretty cheap from Allelectronics.com.Read the Directions and go slow- test at every opportunity, and if you don't have one- get a cheapy digital meter-$10- to help you thru! Holler if you need help! Robert
i dont think the previous posters are very familiar with powering locks from alarms .... there are several ways that these relays get used in alarm systems and most people are not familiar with them. the 451m is one of the most reliable relays for power locks there is. if they are aftermarket actuators (hopefully DEI brand also) they will most likely be powered/grounded ONLY through their terminals and not by their body being grounded. the 451m grounds BOTH terminals when not being used and then "un" grounds one of the terminals and powers it to move the power lock rod in the direction requested.the lock rod direction determines which termiinal gets "un" grounded and powered. i have installed over a hundred 451m relays (and DEI alarms and remote starters) over the years and have NEVER seen one fail. since your application doesnt power in through them and instead powers out through them, you dont need to fuse terminal #30 on your relays as previously mentioned AND you dont need to pop open you "sealed" relay box to see how it works.. If you ARE using the "Progressive Unlocking" feature on the DEI alarm, you will need alot more extensive instructions than i have provided here... and maybe another relay. If you are NOT implementing the "Progressive Unlocking" feature, the following should get you where you want to be. "Violet/Black-lock/unlock normally open #87 (this one is a single wire that feeds into an inline fuse that splits into two wires and then goes into the relay) <-- Goes to a CONSTANT 12volt source. Green/Black-lock output #30 <--goes to all actuator's Green wires. Blue/Black-unlock output #30 <--goes to all actuator's BLUE wires. White/Black-lock normally closed #87A <-- Goes to GROUND Brown/Black-unlock normally closed 87A <-- Goes to GROUND CAUTION!!! since actuators need to be mounted different ways for different cars...... lock and unlock may work backwards wired this way (but probably not).... if it does ... swap the wires connected to the #30 terminals. you can use original buick switches but they will have to be wired different than factory. the orange wire will now need to go to ground and then the blue and brown or whatever colors they are will each tap into one of the little skinny blue or green wires that run from your 451m to the alarm brain. if the lock and unlock work backwards, swap them. remove the fuse that powers the relays untill all connections are secure from shorting to ground. if this alarm is giong into an old convertible, you ought to consider a 508D radar motion sensor. when properly mounted, they are handy with the top up or down. once i get out of bed this afternoon i will PM you my phone number to answer any other questions that you have.
Thanks for the responses guys. It sounds like YUK has installed quite a few of these DE systems. YUK- The descriptions of the wires I gave are directly from the back of the sealed relay. It is the only place that gave any indication of what the wires were for. The actuators were purchased with the system. I am at work and I can check to see if they are DE or not. I am pretty sure they are. I'm guessing when you say "Progressive Unlocking" feature you mean the lock will be activated by either the alarm system or the manual switch on the door panel? If that is not the case what is progressive unlocking? The descriptions you gave for the wires makes it pretty clear, pending the "Progressive Unlocking" question. I'm sure I'll still have questions before I finish. Regarding the manual switches. I am trying to make this "look" OEM. I have several '65 power lock switches with the rounded corners. The '65 power locks were vacuum operated. I planned to modify these vacuum switches to accomodate basic momentary switches behind the door panels to control the locks. I am confident I can get the OEM switch to operate a basic momentary switch to complete the circuit. I assume these switches will merely provide power either the lock or unlock side. If the relay maintains a constant ground to both sides of the actuator it sounds like I'll have problems with the manual switches when they apply + to one side. As I am typing this I'm realizing this is the "more complicated" wiring instructions you were talking about. I looked at the back of the power window switches and it has three posts. I assume one is power in and the other two are power out to either the up side or the down side of the window. I thought this might be the method for the power locks but I'm guessing it is too basic with the alarm system involved. I was interested in the 508D but it just seemed like it might not work as advertised. Have you had good luck with them? Where would be a good place to mount the sensor? I really appreciate the help on this. Rick
I remember reverse engineering a DEI system with remote start in my friends jeep w/o instructions UGG... they bought the car recently and went to replace the battery and it would no longer start. Removing of 6 relays later and the brain. I then got the info from DEI on installing it and installed the alarm into another car (less remote start)
sounds like the switches we are wanting! just the style i explained before. progressive unlocking unlocks the drivers door with the first press of the remote's unlock button and the the rest of the doors with the next press of the remote's unlock button. some models dont offer this feature and i have not been up on alarm models for about 18 months while i was in the "heart transplant" mode. the toughest part of this job will be getting the actuators to work well. lube everything to do with your door latch and locking mech and all pivot points in the linkage. it needs to work pretty easy before the actuator install. do you have any of the paperwork for this alarm? accessories? is you car 2 or 4 door? buckets? console? i am PMing you my phone number.
The car is a two door convertible, buckets and center console. I have test fitted one of the actuators in the door and it seems to work pretty well. The sales guy warned me that old cars may require some special linkage because of the stiffness of the locking mechanisim. The actuators are 8lbs and he said that may not be enough. I spent some time making sure I had the most efficent linkage I could on these with the most direct throw. I'll post a pic of how I did it and see what you think. It has no problem popping the lock. I don't think the progressive setup would be necessary. Both locks opening at once is fine with me. I do have the paperwork on all the equipment. The door lock relay came with basically nothing. I got what information I could off the back of the relay. there is a pretty good scematic in the back of the installation guide.....very small print though. I could blow it up and post it. I'm crazy busy at work right now and I have a 9/15 deadline I have to meet. It will probably be Weds evening before I can call. Will that work? Thanks, Rick
no problem, just call whenever its handy. i know some of this stuff can be frustating when its new to ya and its nice to have a "phone-a-friend" when needed.p sounds like you have done well with the actuators. i dont forsee any problems with how you have done them. did you lube the rods where they slide through the nylon bushings(if your doors have them)? here is a pic from a 451m installation paper that pertains to your install. its not very pretty.:kodak: you dont need to post any paperwork pics for me, i think you are heading for the bullseye on this gig. if the top of you console is plastic, a 508d might work ok. but if its metal, mounting the 508D inside would be a waste of time. BTW ... if you creatively installed a power lock switch on the console, you would only need one.... just a thought. does your car have a power trunk popper? this would be a good time to run the wiring for it in conjunction with the alarm. most people arent aware of it but big cars from the mid to late 60s like yours can use a power trunk solenoid from a 71-76 big GM car with a slight mod to the mounting plate in the trunk. i can post pics of this if needed... and i probably have an extra popper laying around.
It sounds like you have good help here and I had a Viper 5901 installed in my truck a few weeks ago, and the tech left some really detailed print-outs from a web site he pulled up, which is apparently what the installers use to show them exactly what does where. I'd think the Cat won't be listed on the website, but if you want I can see if I can talk to the installer and get any more info. I have been going to that store for a long time and they may be willing to part with some knowledge for me...
rick if you decide to install a trunk popper and/or dome light supervision, lemme know. i have lots of new relays with sockets and i will mail you a couple... the stores seem to think they are made of solid gold or somethin.
My car has the OEM vacuum trunk release and it is operational so I don;t want to change that. The alarm I bought has the dome light supervision integrated into the system....or it is supposed to. I would like to honk my 4 note horns from the remote just to mess with people at car shows. I don;t know if that will take a relay or if the system is even capable of doing something like that. I'm ready for Weds to try this stuff out.....and stop this overtime crap. Rick
i think Domelight will need a relay to be added to the system. one relay will be needed for the horns too. a pretty easy addition. the relay will have #30 go to ground and #87 taps into the black (skinny) wire at the original horn relay. #85 gets 12v constant and #86 goes to whichever acc channel on the alarm brain is gonna avtivate the horns. ALSO... with old cars and their easy to access/unhook/disable batteries, you might consider getting a DEI battery back for the alarm. i also like to use a ford solenoid for the starter. that way it is more difficult to attack the battery by shorting the cable at the starter.
Your right on the domelight. I thought it was there but....no. I do want to do the horn too. If you have the parts I need let me know how much. I'm pretty sure I have the door locks figured out. I still need to modify the OEM vacuum switch to work. I think I gave that figured out too. The battery back up is appealing as well. What type of battery is it? I think I'm going to tap into the lights at the headlight switch. Seems like a logical place. The hood pin is a no brainer. I haven't looked at the tilt sensor yet, but it looks like plug & play. As far as the starter kill switch, I'm running an MSD and not sure how that is going to effect this. The starter kill solenoid has 3 wires. Green to a switched 12v source, yellow to the ignition system, and black to the starter. The green I can handle, the other two o No: . I know the way my MSD is hooked up if I ground the white wire from the MSD the car will turn over but won't start. I was going to hook that up to a hidden switch outside of the alarm system. Where exactly do I hook up the black and yellow wire? Thanks Rick
on the starter kill relay. you have to cut the wire that comes from the ignition switch that cranks the starter. it is purple on later model cars but i cant remember if it is on the old iron. once its cut, green hooks up to the wire "from" the switch. black hooks up to the wire "to" the starter. yellow taps into the ignition wire. orange hooks to the orange wire on the alarm brain labeled "orange "-" ground when armed output". what happens is, anytime the alarm is "armed" AND the key is "on' or "start", the relay has power and breaks the connection between green and black. if the alarm is armed and nobody is trying to start the car, the relay is not energized because it has no power to it (from the ign). so in reality, the relay only uses power when someone is trying to start the protected car. But!... that dont mean they still cant jump the starter at the solenoid. ...which brings us back to the hood lock and/or ford solenoid (hidden and difficult to jump). the MSD being utilized but no part of the alarm system is an excellent idea. here is a battery back up... http://cgi.ebay.com/DEI-520T-BACKUP...in_0?hash=item588284b444&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 they work great and constantly keep charged from your car but if you cars battery is disabled, it will not effect the back up. you will still have a wailing siren and alarm sensing. very easy to hook up.
Rick, it looks like you will have a great alarm when you are finished, but I have to ask: are you really going to leave a perfect 65 Wildcat Convertible in a dangerous location?
i mailed the relays off friday at noon. mapping the system will save you lots of headaches. also use a digi-cam to take photos of each component as you mount it and showing where the wires are headed. can be very handy in the future. if your alarm brain has the shock sensor built into it, you will need easy access to adjust it. once i had to drill a small hole in a duct and make a tool that was about 18 inches long to put through the vent & ductwall to reach the brain for adjustment. on the green and black wires of the starter kill. a poor connection of either of these wires could leave someone who dont know how to manually jump a starter solenoid stranded. please dont feel rushed by me. im (hopefully) available (at one of the 2 phone#s) whenever. i just want you to get it right the first time. the battery on the back up is a little heavy. make sure you mount it firm. whenever possible, i like to put it under the top edge of carpet at the firewall. a thin firm pad between the battery and the floorpan and the battery duct taped (while applying a little prussure to the battery) to the floor with a little heat gun applied to the ends of the tape so it will really grab the floor. some cars dont have this mounting available. but you get the idea.
You're right. I'll probably never leave it in a bad place. But, I have this crazy idea of driving the car up the California coast and then through the wine country. The wife seems to be fired up about it anyway. There may be a stop along the way where I would feel better with the full tilt protection. Rick
