Twin Turbo '70 GS

Discussion in 'High Tech for Old Iron' started by Bent6, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    First off, I've been into Buicks since I was a child. My parents drove me home from the hospital in 1970 in a Buick GS Stage 1 which I still own to this day. I've been a little sidetracked in the Turbo V6 scene since they came out but I've finally decided to pull the trigger on this project that's been rattling around in the back of my head for years now.

    I've been hesitant to post this over here but here goes. All the purists and VIN sniffers might as well quit reading here.........................

    1970 Buick GS 455 - WAS a numbers matching car until the previous owner sold the engine and transmission. I picked it up off a friend of his on this board in the state you see it now. The car has been done right up to this point including new Then and Now reproduction quarter panels.

    The car is currently being built to 25.5 specs with mini-tubs, full cage, some carbon fiber pieces, etc. One of the goals with this car is for it to be fully streetable complete with A/C, drive to the track, bust off a 7 second pass and drive it back home. I looked at possibly using one of the TA aluminum blocks but between the delays with the block, the fact that there isn't a good set of heads for this application as well as the fact there are going to be plenty more obstacles with that engine the decision was made to go another route. Although some may think of this as complete sacrilege, the decision was made to build a modern tech 455 based on an LSX platform due to parts availability among other things. The way I look at it is this - the TA will be just as much of an aftermarket engine as the LSX is an aftermarket engine with the only difference being the TA is still loosely based on the original Buick 455 design just so it will still be partially Buick. I am going out of my way to make the LSX come out to 455 cubes simply for nostalgia's sake.

    FWIW, the engine will be a GMPP tall-deck LSX block filled with all the good stuff (Callies crank, Oliver rods, JE pistons, etc) along with fully ported All-Pro heads flowing over 400cfm, solid roller cam, Hogan intake, and controlled by an Electromotive TEC3r ignition/fuel management system with coil on plug technology and dual injectors per cylinder. Extra motivation will be provided by twin Turbonetics 72mm T4 turbos blowing through a liquid intercooler. We will have two completely separate fuel systems - the primary system will be composed of smaller injectors with pump gas while the secondary system will be a larger set of injectors on race fuel that will be brought in as the boost comes into play - an octane on demand system more or less. Power numbers should be over 1000hp with low boost and in the range of 1800hp with the boost cranked up and on the wick. I hope this modern interpretation of the GS will do us all proud when completed.

    Here are some pics of the car as it was when I picked it up. I hope to have some updated pics from the chassis shop in the next few days. Stay tuned...................:3gears:

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  2. buick46270

    buick46270 Well-Known Member

    I LOVE IT:laugh: .....most here will not though:spank:
     
  3. leo455

    leo455 LAB MAN

    It is YOUR car, but go buy a CHEVELLE:blast:
     
  4. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    Here we go.

    You are absolutely correct - it's MY car. Why would I want a Chevelle?
     
  5. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Well-Known Member

    Sounds Awesome!!
    Keep us updated on the progress!:3gears:
     
  6. v8regalowner

    v8regalowner Silver level contributor

    Im glad to see someone bought that car. every time i looked at the post it made me think of what i could do with it. Good luck with the build and im sure you will have fun with it.:beer
     
  7. sailbrd

    sailbrd Well-Known Member

    I don't like the steering wheel :laugh: It's the only way to get where you want to go. We only wish we could build a Buick motor to do what a LS can do. Don't like that fact but that's the way it is. Good luck and can't wait to see it finished.
     
  8. online170

    online170 Well-Known Member

    Awesome, cant wait to see how it turns out.

    You might be aware of Swartz Performance, but he did what youre doing to an LSX motor but used bore and stroke for an olds 455. I beleive that one was N/A motor, but the end result and behaviour was mysteriously like an olds 455. Similar torque and hp performance.

    Should be a really cool build. If youre going LSX i expect no less than 2000hp :spank: :laugh:
     
  9. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    I've seen the Olds Schwartz did a while back. Ugly car IMO but it kind of gave me the idea of building an LSX to 455 cubes. I won't be able to use the same bore as the Buick 455 with the LSX but I can make it up with the stroke to come out to 455 cubes. Believe me, if I could have attained my goals using a Buick engine I would have. The LSX was not an easy decision for me.

    I think 1800hp will be about it with the 72s but a simple turbo change to some T4 88mm turbos should put it over 2000hp no problem. We decided on the 72s as a compromise to keep it streetable. It will be run on a DTS dyno before it goes in the car so there won't be any guessing as far as HP/TQ numbers.
     
  10. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    If I could remember your first name I would call you by it... but we did race in the king of the hill shootout in 2000 at the GS Nats, if I recall correctly..

    Anyway..

    While your engine choice might be based on a little "fuzzy logic", :puzzled: it really doesn't matter to me what you do with your car. Your certainly correct in saying there is better parts availability, but that's always been true of the bowtie stuff. Ok,, Ok,, corporate GM.. :Dou: But it will be a shame that your finished product won't be able to be run at the Buick national events..

    One thing to consider tho..

    I am currently building a similar car, with similar goals, but with the new TA block and a Supercharger, Sheet metal FI manifold ect ect..

    Based on what we are seeing with the cars like this already out there, a big concern of ours was suspension adjustablity. Originally we were going the mini tub route, but after talking with a few folks, and my experience with Sweesy's tube chassis car, we decided that a back half with a real race 4 link was a better option. It won't be steamroller tires.. (13" slick for the track, and 315/65/15's for the street, but the concern was being able to get the instant center adjustment that will be required to keep it off the guardrails.

    And the back seat is not much of a concern, since with a 25.5 cage you won't get anybody in there.. at least not without a funnel anyway.. :pp

    John Jr's car is the one real example I know of, that is very similar to yours, but with far less power, he's in the low 10's/high 9's I think, and even at that level of performance, when the boost comes on, it lifts the front end again.. not good at 60' out. Tends to tighten the the poop chute, if you know what I mean.

    What's your plan for rear suspension adjustablity?

    JW
     
  11. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    Hey Jim -

    I do remember racing you guys. Hopefully we can do that again soon!

    Like I said, I didn't take the decision lightly. Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't really care about being politically correct for the GSCA either - they can have their cookie cutter cars and keep on limiting ingenuity within the classes. I would rather have a car that can be competitive in many events vs just one or two Buick events. There are several Buicks out there that have gone the non-Buick engine route with turbos - we have discussed maybe trying to get up an exhibition class for BG but we are all too far apart performance wise for any tight racing. We may hit Drag Week and some other bigger national events with this car and hopefully be real competitive.

    With that said, I looked into the TA block but when I spoke to Mike it seemed to me that a lot of stuff was still up in the air. At the time, he didn't even have any cam blanks for the thing. I just didn't want to be sitting here a year down the road waiting on parts. I really wanted to run a good flowing set of 6-bolt heads as well. I'm sure the TA will be a nice piece and we may revisit that route down the road when they get all their ducks in a row.

    As far as the suspension, we are going to keep the basic stock 4-link arrangement but build in adjustabilty at the frame mouting points as well as the rear end to allow for adjustments to the IC. At this point we have the car sitting at ride height and it only looks like it will require a minor frame notch to accomplish our tire goals. The upper and lower control arms will be double adjustable with heim joint end links. We're fabricating a pretty trick rear end with AFCO coilovers that will allow ride height adjustability from inside the trunk along with a pro-style anti-roll bar. This car won't have huge tubs either as I promised my wife I'd keep the back seat.:Smarty: Tires will be 315/60/15 MT DRs for the street and maybe a 31/10.5w slick for the track.
     
  12. Justa350

    Justa350 I'm BACK!

    For what it's worth, I tubbed my car for 32 x17.5's, and kept the back seat. I slit the floor and wells, moved the inner halves inboard 7" (per side) then filled the gap with sheetmetal. I made templates for the gaps out of heavy paper, then transfered it to the metal.

    Just notch the seat frame and re-tack weld heavy steel wire where needed for support. You're only thinning the seat out at the outer corners, so passengers can still ride. Look out for the cage though.

    That worked for much more tire than you're planning so don't fear the minitub negating the rear seat!
     
  13. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    Your right Will.. if your on a serious deadline, going with parts that are already out there is the only way to make it happen. And there are plenty of "all make" events out there. I just like the challenge of going all Buick, for one, and also like the idea of a 4.5" bore BBB on boost. Can you say torque MONSTER!.


    I am pretty sure that once the 30 blocks that are just about complete here are available, TA is going to want to move them, and that will be tough to do without cam blanks, and other misc hardware.

    That's a pretty good incentive to get them done..


    I also considered building new chassis brackets, to accomidate the lastest and greatest stock type stuff, but at the end of the day, it comes down for me to using proven components, and letting someone else do all the cad work for the IC/CG points. By the time your done, labor and money wise, there really isn't that much difference, between a mild back half car, and what your doing.

    Good luck with the project, keep us updated.

    JW
     
  14. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    I shouldn't have used the term "mini-tub". We're actually putting in full carbon fiber tubs to acheive the ride height we want. The shape of the stock tubs limit the ride height and tire placement. This sucker is going to be LOW - right now we have about 4" of clearance at the front crossmember.
     
  15. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    Believe me Jim, if the TA stuff comes together down the road and they develop a suitable set of heads, I'll sell the LSX and build a TA/Buick engine. Either way, power is not going to be an issue for either engine platform.

    You are absolutely correct about the cost on doing this vs a back half. The chassis decisions were based on the fact that outlaw 10.5 racing is really big in my area and it most always centers around the "stock rear suspension" rules although that term is used loosely. I don't really plan on this being a race car but I just can't seem to help myself.:rolleyes: Did I mention it's going to have A/C and leather seats?
     
  16. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    Here's a couple of pics of the car as it currently sits. It ain't much as far as progress goes but we're still waiting on parts - mainly the real wheels. Car is sitting real close to the final ride height with the 315/60 DRs just sitting under it to get a feel for how it'll look. The seats are Corbeaus.

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  17. GoldBoattail455

    GoldBoattail455 462 -> TH400 -> Posi

    Will,
    Looking good! Very nice project. Keep us updated, I know I'll be following closely. :TU:
     
  18. online170

    online170 Well-Known Member

    What will you be using for a transmission??

    At that power level, using anything will be a challenge. But with the LSX base, I would immediately be looking at a 6spd.
     
  19. buick46270

    buick46270 Well-Known Member

    with that much power a glide would be the obvious choice, you can still get away with a th400....but a gv overdrive unit on the back of the powerdlide would be nice.
     
  20. Bent6

    Bent6 The Vanilla Gorilla

    I don't think a 6 speed of any kind would last for long behind this much power. Trans will be whats called an Outlaw Turbo Glide. Basically it's a TH400 with all the good stuff including a billet spragless valve body and billet gear set. It has the ability to launch in 1st OR 2nd gear off the transbrake. A lot of 10.5 cars are running these now - the ability to launch in 2nd softens the hit on marginal tracks. I just switched from a Glide to one of these in my 7 sec V6 race car. A Gear Vendors OD would be nice but they add a lot of weight which we're trying to keep down as much as possible.
     

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