I am in the middle of a build out of my grandma old car.....1961 Buick Invicta Custom 2 dr hardtop. Tom....when was your lastest production run? DO you have a set of these babies for a nailhead newby like myself? Rob Spokane, WA
Wes is right, these should help anything from a stock rebuild to a full competition built engine. I ran through the valve to piston clearance on my motor tonight, it looks like they should work without any trouble. What I did find was that the exhaust rocker for cyl #3 was just barely making contact with the 'washer' for the bolt that holds the stanchion down. This is more than likely what was 'holding' my valve open creating the 'popping' in the exhaust. This also explains why the old 'Gotha' rockers didn't have any issues. The Gotha rockers are a little 'thinner' near the stanchions as they are cast iron. Tomorrow I am going to 'take a little off' the washers on the bolts so that there is no interference.I am also going to run through one more time checking the valve to piston clearence after I know all the bolts clear the rockers, just for the reassurance. SO far it looks like I have room for about a .594" lift before any interference. This is with stock pistons and no real 'milling' of the heads. Could be done by the end of the week, will just need to wait out all the rain we are getting this week.
Tom and commitee, To summarize at this point. My newly rebuilt 425 2x4, to stock specs. with the exception of a .030 bore, is or is not a candidate for a bolt-on application for the rockers sent directly from Buick heaven. I realize it is prudent and certainly recommended to check the clearance, but am I going into this with a factory valve train knowing there will be alot more to it? The intent for this engine is to push my 65' Riv around to cruises and car shows on weekends, drive the wife around occasionaly, and even less frequently humble the 20 something punk nextdoor and his wreck of the month ride. I just like the sound of what Tom's rocker do in terms of waking a sleeping wildcat. Thanks.......Dan
It is Dan. The Yacster & 87GN@TaHoe both own '64 Rivs. that are, or were, virgin, stock, untouched originals. They are mostly a Bolt-On in stock applications, BUT, you must check all your clearances to be absolutely sure there will be no interference problems. What kind of cam your running has alot to do with it also. The biggest HP gain is from a stock engine. May I make a suggestion, read the posts again. Tom T.
in my opinion, ANY and EVERY nailhead is a candidate for these roller rockers... by getting these you're getting a well engineered part which has shown DEFINATE increases on an engine dyno and chassis dyno... tom picked up over 25HP to the rear wheels just by bolting these on.. In my '64 riviera i didn't dyno it, but the seat-o-pants-o-meter told me that i made the right decision by purchasing these:TU: you can read my post about it about a page back or so (my riv is a single 4bb) ANYTHING that will get the athsmatic 'Nail to breathe is worth it (that's why i'm going to try to go with turbochargers :TU: ) Like it has been said MANY MANY times before, the nailhead heads can barely support a high performance 322ci engine, much less a stock 425... oh and BTY, I have never met Tom before (kinda hard over 2800 miles away), only talked to him over the phone about Nails, our '64 Rivi's, my crazy and lofty goals for mine, and life in general... i have nothing to gain by posting what i have experienced with his rockers, and i am a completely independant effort... just a 21 year old kid wanting to tear it up in my (nearly) 5000lb beast wes:beer
Checking vp cleanance Tom & Joe.... Do you use 'light' springs to check valve-piston clearance? and is there a way the remove the std valve springs without removing the head from the block? And specificly what solid valve lifter can I use during the procedure?....I do have adj pushrods, so lifter length isn't critical. And finally, can I buy just 2 solid lifters from say, NAPA? Thanks!
Walt, using light springs, of course, makes it easier, but it's not mandatory. You can use compressed air to hold up the valves while removing the springs. If you don't have the luxury of "Air" then you can use nylon rope through the plug hole to accomplish the same thing, just more time consuming. Any .842" diameter lifter will do. If a solid is not readily available use a hydraulic. Take the snap ring out of the cup, remove all internal contents, refill with nuts & washers to kinda give you a solid, re-install the cup & snap ring. Now you have a solid. So, any ole .842" lifter will do, even if it's wiped out. Your not running the engine, just using it for checking. If the adjustable pushrod is long enough, you could bleed out all the oil in the hydraulic & just compress the guts of the lifter down. This will also act as a solid. Go to your local friendly machine shop they throw away lifters by the gross, plus. Check the intakes the most accurate. The "Nail" has a very fast rise ramp design if the cam your using is ground along the same lines as a stocker. The intake in most cases actually opens faster than the piston is going down the cylinder. Tom T.
I am using light 'valve checking springs' I bought from the local speed shop for aobut $8. Seems expensive for she light springs but saves a lot of 'effort' when compressing the valves, I also used them when mesurig the valve to guide clearence when I first assembled the heads. They are universal fit so they just get put in the tool box for the next engine/head build up. As far as removing the valve springs without pulling the heads, I use compressed air ( I have a big compresor in the garage) but the rope trick works well. Just pack as much of the rope into the piston as possible and make sure to leave some hanging out so you have something to pull it out with. The next step is removing the keepers out of the retainers. If you don't have a valve spring compressor, you can do a couple of things: 1) you can place a large deep socket (3/4"-13/16" or so) socket open end down on the retainer and smack it good with a hammer, this should make the keepers pop out-this may let them fall into the heads. This does not help you reinstall the keepers later though. It is easy to compress the 'checking springs' but not the regular springs. 2) install a 'spare' shaft without the rockers installed, use a couple of large screwdrivers between the shaft and the spring retainer to compress the spring, use a small magnet to remove the keepers. (this is how I did it.) As far as I know any small block or big block chevy solid lifter should work-as long as you have enough adjustment on the pushrods. It may be tough to get someone at NAPA or any other small parts store to find an application for the lifters though. I would try late fifties chevy corvette with solid cam. Tom's method of using a 'collapsed' hydraulic lifter works just as well and probably is much easier to do than finding solid lifters cheap. As Tom said, the intake seems more critical than the exhaust. Find a way to check every 2-3 degrees as the intake valve will start to get close to the piston somwhere around half way through the lobe lift. This is because (as Tom has stated in the past) the intake is moving faster downward than the piston in the cylinder for a while.
Something is scary to me about having valves come so close to the pistons........in the past I have had my lifters "pump up" to the point that when I slowed down, I had couple missing cylinders for about a minute or so until they bled down. (did this while checking my top end once.....I wondered when the valves would start floating. I made it all the way up to 130. :Brow: ) I cringe at the thought of a few bent valves, if not from pumped up lifters but from floating valves at high revs. I was worried that was what I did at the time. :shock: ou:
Thanks guys!:beer I've done the procedure before, but before the heads got the final install. This time, I don't want to have to pull the heads. I'm using an Isky 'Super Magnum' cam. The first time around (1979), I didn't have enough vp clearance, so the pistons were notched. I'm sure that hurt my compression ratio, but the car still runs low 13's, so I can't complain. Joe, with my adjustable pushrods, lifter preload is set at zero lash plus 1/4 turn. I think spec is around 20 thou?? So if the lifter does pump up, it's only that 20 thou. With at least 80 thou vp clearance, it should survive.
It's gettin' late but let me see if I can give ya' a few tips here. 1-To make a hydraulic lifter into a "solid" for checking purposes, merely dissassemble like Tom mentioned, run to Sears or Wal-Mart, etc, and get some liquid epoxy. Brand don't matter you're gonna "toss" the lifter when your done. While it's apart fill it slowly and gradually put it back together, pushing the excess liquid out. Make sure the snap ring goes back in and leave it sit a while. 2-While your "shopping", those stores normally have a spring assortment for sale. I know, I've bought them there many times. You don't need 8.00 springs. 3-If you keep the plunger at about .015"/.020" down, you're more than likely not gonna bend a valve IF it pumps up from that sole issue. What the valve MAY see from that scenario is .020" x the R/A ratio? and that's it. E.G. .020" x 1.6=.030". What you have to be careful of with that "event" is the pushrod leaves the path due to a spring that's "out-of-control" and lands off the P/R seat area in the lifter cup and allows the valve POSSIBLY to open way beyond that simple .020" plunger depression. That's usually when you find the "bent" valves. 4-Don't use any adjustable pushrods as a permanent install, they pose all kinds of issues. For starter's they're just too heavy. And they're in an environment that's tough to keep "stable" when it's perfect. This may be why the Nailhead had the 1/4" pushrods with the large ends from the "start". Only a guess here! Buick may have suspected the add'l weight of the "balls" needed the lighter weight of the tube length. Gotta go, Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. With Tom's rockers on the scene, there's absolutely no need for the adjustable pushrods at all. I still am not sure about his prices, he amy have mentioned them, but over here on some SB's with shaft rockers we get probably twice the cost. And the BB's probably triple!
ou: ou: ou: ou: does the thought of spending a little time on a classic car really scare people? Being that these ARE old cars, one is eventually going to have to get their hands dirty... this is very simple and there is nothing to be afraid of... shoot, if you don't want your rockers, i'll be happy to buy them
Keep your dirty hands ideas to yourself.....assuming you were questioning my ability to fool around inside a motor. I was racing the Hemis, 6packs, LS6's, RAIV's in the only Buick in the county with hood scoops before they were considered museum pieces. I was beating them with the parts that Buick engineered for them and winning. I was helping a lot of those other guys tune their mixed makes because their dads had no idea what a spark plug is(except for Bill Sowle, who tuned the Top Fuelers for the Paoli Bros.) I was led to believe that these were a bolt on and now am hearing that I need to "check clearances" I have no interest in finding a solid lifter or filling in a hydraulic lifter with nuts and washers, or fiddling with compressed air to make sure the valves won't bust on startup or if I overrev it. My nails run pretty darn good, and I don't have any illusions that they will come close to my Stage 1. I won't be racing them against the locals, so they are plenty fast without worrying about grenading the top end to wring out 20 more HP...... And NO they aren't for sale. Dan
Dan, If you are using stock components such as camshaft, valves, lifters etc... and the heads have not been milled-the rockers 'should' bolt on without any issues. If you were to 'do the math' you wil find that you have plenty of clearance. However, Tom is a mechanic/technician by trade (since cars started rolling on round wheels), he just wants to be sure that there are no issues caused by the installation of 'his' rockers. These days most people will tell you upfront that 'these will bolt on, no problem' and in 99% of the cases they are going to be right. However, the one time someone has something out of the ordinary, and an issue arises, they will tell you that it is installation error or some other bs. Tom is just trying to be upfront and let you know that to be absolutely sure, you should double check everything to make sure all components are what you think they are. I don't think anyone here questions your ablility, I think maybe some people (such as I ) were suprised that after purchasing these you have decided not to use them, especially after having the motor rebuilt-it seems like an excellent time to make an upgrade. My only recommendation is that if you are not going to use them now, put them on the shelf-in time you may find that the effort to 'double check' clearances is worth the results. Obviously, only you know what you want and expect from your car, as long as you can obtain what you want-good for you.
Well, I finally got 'Tom's' roller rockers on the car and got a quick run in it today. All I can say is wow, they were well worth the investment and the time it took to check the clearences. In the end, the only issue I ended up having to deal with were the bolts whick hold down the rockershaft stanchions. I had to sand the 'built-in' 'washers' down a little. I had found a little interference on the #3 exh rocker. I am not sure why it was hitting and none of the others did, but I pulled the stanchions off a 'rebuilt' shaft assembly. Perhaps something was 'machined' when the shafts were reconditionedo No: Anyhow, the car definately pulls better. Right now I am still trying to sort out some shift issues with my 'modified' sp/th400 (has been ongoing), but once this thing gets going it really pulls hard and revs up a bit quicker than with the Gotha rockers which I had been running for over 10yrs. I hope to be able to sneak in a chassis dyno pull and some track time. Now that I have both setups (Gotha and roller) the change over time is short and I can do some actual/acurate testing to see how much my car gained form these. I know that each 'combination' will respond slightly differently, but I am curious houw much I have actually gained. Unfortunately, I will need to cure my tranny troubles before getting any 'hard' results. I am glad I can finally post 'honest' testimony to Tom's efforts. I can't wait to be able to give true numbers of my own.:3gears:
Can't wait Joe! Not that I understand ANY of this! But the rollers sure will look pretty on my bar....:beer
Sorry to keep everyone waiting, I just haven't had time to sort the trans out this week, I am not sure about the next week either yet. I will try to pick away at it during the week. 5mins here, 5mins there you know the routine.
I have a question (actually 2) that I cant find in this threrad.. Tom, how much are the rockers and when is the next set due to be delivered ? And how do you check the clearences ? Specifically between piston and valves ? Thanks
