toms roller rockers vs cam and valves from ta

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by TAANK, Sep 17, 2007.

  1. TA Perf

    TA Perf Member

    Folks,
    We started this project on Tom’s behalf. Yes, it took 3.5 years to complete. This has not made me happy. 1 year ago Tom went else where which I was unaware off until someone called me about a post they had seen of Tom’s rockers. I had placed the order so I was liable to finish the project. We completely redesign the rockers from what Tom's are today. Just get a set and compare. We went through 4 different rocker body designs, spent allot of time getting the adjuster screw positioned so it will load properly with correct pushrod angle. Ratio (advertised at 1.60 but checks at 1.64), roller tip location on the valve, spring clearance, and flat just building the strongest & best rocker possible within the nailheads limitations. The set comes with needle bearing 7075 billet alum rockers, hardened and ground 8620 gun drilled shafts, billet rocker shaft stands, nylon spacers, & ARP studs are all included. As far as the bearings coming apart, sounds like a sales pitch to me. We have folks with over 100,000.00 miles on our 455 rockers, and the nailheads spring pressures don't even come close. This company builds rockers for all types up to NASCAR engines. They know how to build a great street or strip roller rocker. Yes, you will need to change your pushrods to run our rockers, but that’s about it. If your building an engine or just doing a cam change. Use TA1405 lifters and oil the rockers through the pushrods. I am not in any way trying to knock Tom. Remember folks, TA made a commitment to a company in connection with Tom, so we had to see it through. I would have back out if I new sooner. If you think Tom's are a better part/better value, then I say buy them. We have sold just under a few dozen sets at this time. Very good reviews so far. Price currently at $899.95 because of price quotes early on, no deposit required. This will be getting updated soon. You are getting allot for your money, this is a difficult rocker to make.

    Quote:
    Think about it!!!! What happens if some of the "Special" parts need replacing 1, 5 or 10 years down the road. Where do you find them?????

    TA Performance is now operating in our 25th year, and continues to service our products.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  2. funkyriv

    funkyriv Well-Known Member

    It would be helpful for your performance/quality case if you could get some of these users to publicly post their TA Nailhead roller rocker experience in this forum.

    Since this thread is also about TA cams, I have questions about the TA Nailhead cam offerings - pg 64 of the catalog. Why do the TA20 and TA30 cams have the exact same duration for intake and exhaust? Given that the NH heads are restricted on exhaust porting relative to intake, why do you want to limit performance with bad exhaust duration? One way to equalize the flow would be to restrict the intake valve lift, but this hinders intake potential rather than taking advantage of it. The other NH cams in the catalog seem to make more sense in this regard. Are the numbers for TA20 & TA30 typo's or am I missing something?

    Thx.
     
  3. funkyriv

    funkyriv Well-Known Member

    What low friction mechanism does the Tom Telesco design use to rotate the rocker on the shaft? Any pictures of this? Thx
     
  4. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Oil.:grin:

    Toms rockers use the stock-type oiling system. Oil is fed thru the inside of the rocker shafts and pressure-fed to the rocker/shaft interface.
    If I understand Mike correctly, the stock oiling is not used, but oil is fed to each rocker via the individual lifter and pushrod.
     
  5. TA Perf

    TA Perf Member

    1. It would be helpful for your performance/quality case if you could get some of these users to publicly post their TA Nailhead roller rocker experience in this forum.

    2. Since this thread is also about TA cams, I have questions about the TA Nailhead cam offerings - pg 64 of the catalog. Why do the TA20 and TA30 cams have the exact same duration for intake and exhaust? Given that the NH heads are restricted on exhaust porting relative to intake, why do you want to limit performance with bad exhaust duration? One way to equalize the flow would be to restrict the intake valve lift, but this hinders intake potential rather than taking advantage of it. The other NH cams in the catalog seem to make more sense in this regard. Are the numbers for TA20 & TA30 typo's or am I missing something?
    1. Not here to try and start a war, just for the first time telling our side and letting you folks know what's available for your nailhead.

    2. Reason for some of our cams being straight pattern design is. The TA20, 25 & 30 have been around a lot longer than TA Perf. They were put in stock because of customer request. In the past these cams were available from other sources, that's all. We have or can grind you most all cams you see listed for the other engines in our catalog.

    3. Our roller rockers can oil through the rocker shafts or the pushrods. Most all modern engines are through the pushrods.
     
  6. funkyriv

    funkyriv Well-Known Member

    I certainly do not want to see a war happen in this useful nailhead forum. I'm grateful for multiple perspectives being discussed in a reasonable manner.

    To summarize what i've read:
    Tom's roller rockers add performance by increasing valve lift with a rocker ratio 1.6+, and can fit in a completely stock application. Rocker on shaft surfaces are maintained using oil pressure. $953.20 for rockers and shafts assuming some of the old rocker parts are used (stands, springs, etc.) Tom's rockers will work with any stock Buick valve cover.

    TA roller rockers also add performance by increasing valve lift with a rocker ratio 1.6+, and may have a slight high performance benefit with the bearing on shaft design. $900 for the complete rocker assembly, but you need new push rods ($50-$100) and new valve covers unless you have stamped steel covers. To keep the cool aluminum valve cover look one can order TA tall valve covers (TA1328E $165/ea or $225/ea x2 = $330-$450). Total cost with aluminum valve covers = $1280-$1450. Cost with stamped steel valve covers = $950-$1000.

    Similar total cost with stamped steel valve covers. But a large cost differential if you have aluminum valve covers.

    Anything else missing from the comparison? Will the TA tall valve covers fit with all AC brackets, etc?

    Thx!
     
  7. yacster

    yacster Lv the gun tk the Canolis

    Being one of the mouth pieces for TT's Rockers I will say this - Mike, I am glad to see there are those out there who are willing to try to design products and enhance the nailhead. Both Mike and Tom have put countless hours of hard work and a lot of money up to design and make these performance enhancing products for us "fringe" hot rod guys. Unfortunately the SBC, BBC, and in our little world here the BBBs tower over our Nailheads in the R & D of new performance parts and even the reproduction of old ones (Hey Vic Edelbrock you listening!). I would like to thank Mike and Tom for doing what they do. IMHO whether you go either way, TT's or TA's, I am sure you will get some excellent results. Neither guy is going to be able to retire and buy the 40' Sea Ray in the Keys to relax on with the profits from the rockers. They put together a reasonable package so that we can enjoy the most out of our Nails. All I know is what I expirienced with Toms (no disrespect to TA's) which was seat of the pants difference in the performance, and several others have posted the same here on this site. Tom and I have become friends due to his efforts, and honestly, his proximity to me as well as his willingness to help and teach have solidified a great relationship. But, I in no way want Mike at T/A to think I don't appreciate his efforts. Had I lived in Arizona, this story might be reversed. In conclusion I am just glad there are guys like these two men who have taken what they know about a hobby/passion and shared it with the rest of us. :beers2:
     
  8. lapham3@aol.com

    lapham3@aol.com Well-Known Member

    I tend to agree with Joe's post from last fall. I don't have a problem with needle bearings running 'in line' and with full rotation. However, with the offset and the 'back and forth' action, I think I'd feel safer with Tom T's design. Saying that, the materials and rocker to shaft clearance needs to be right-
     
  9. Babeola

    Babeola Well-Known Member

    I have seen first hand what needle bearings from "respectable rockers" can do to the inside of an expensive BBC. They can and do fail. That is why some builders apoxy screens into the oil returns from the heads. Simple is better to me in this case. Why invite problems over a horse or two in a Nailhead?

    Cheryl :)
     
  10. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Just remember the OLD MECHANICS rule;
    The more complex a device is, the more likely that it will fail.
    Remember how the last u-joint looked when you tore it down?????
    the needle brgs wore groves in the trunions. Rocker arms dont rotate all the way around the shaft, so the wear is in a very small space. After some miles, I think the needle bearings would wear groves in the shafts just like a u-joint does. I vote for the rockers without roller brgs, or better yet with bronze bushings that are replaceable.
    Tom has the better idea.
     
  11. jamhdit

    jamhdit Just nuts about buick's

    wow
    took you guy along time to respond to my question about the two different roller rocker designs, i posted in sept.

    glad to see some responses tho.

    i have decided to go with ta performance roller rockers myself.

    after talking to mike many times he gave me some good explanations to there design and it makes sense to me.

    as far as the needle bearings on the NEW rocker shafts, there really should be no way the needle can come out if there was a failure. the peices would be trapped inside by the washers ans spaceres that flank the rockers themselves. look at the picture on the ta performance page.

    i talked to both tom and mike at lentgh b4 i made my decision and both had good points and are very knowledgeable about the nailhead engines.

    in my opinoin, which is what this web site is all about untill we get out on the drag strip.

    toms rockers might be suited for a daily driver, and mikes ta performance rockers, would be the pick for a weekend racer to get every ounce of hp out of this nailhead engine. we all know to get hp out of the nail is not easy because of flow design so it makes sense to me if i can gain 1 or two more hp with needle bearings in the rockers im gonna take it, since hp gains are resticted with this engine
     
  12. Silver Bullet

    Silver Bullet Well-Known Member

    I believe the benifits of both products, personally I will purchase Tom's when I get to that point in my rebuild, and possibly another set to put in my Riviera if the I can afford it. I do find it interesting that I can't find any posts of even an estimate of gains. I'm sure they both have dyno runs or they wouldn't have spent all the time and money. I'm sure the numbers are very close as was stated above. I understand there are so many variables as to condition of internals that effect actual gains but a ball park figure might spark more sales. I think we all know it will vary motor to motor.
    Come on guys lets hear some #s!:3gears:
     
  13. GranSportSedan

    GranSportSedan Puppet dictator, wife has all power

    I'll be going with the TA versions. I'm sure Tom's are a fine product. in stock, no waiting and no deposit are a big plus in my book . also the full roller bearing setup appeals to me as well. I would be buying new pushrods anyway so thats not an issue. also the TA version being a complete assy is a super plus
     
  14. telriv

    telriv Well-Known Member

    Thanks for everyone's replies, weather positive or negative for whatever reasons anyone has. We both make a great product that will enhance ANY "NailHeads" performance standards. If I didn't start this in '99 with an idea to be able to deal with one of the problems of passing air ALL "Nails" had, there would be NO performance enhancing products. Someone had to take an interest to start somewhere. I SAW what the potential could be & went about to prove it could be done. I have succeeded in what I started out to do & this is satisfaction in & of itself. I guess I was crazy for trying to design & develop a part specifically made to make an improvement on something that hasn't been in production for more than 40 years for the benefit of ALL who has a love & a passion for an oddball. This wasn't started as a $$$$ making deal, as was stated neither of us will make enough to even cover the initial costs I'm sure, but to fuel a passion & an idea that has culminated to the point of providing a product to sell that WORKS!!!! How many times does that happen???? Everyone can ask, & hope that some reply, the many who sent in initial deposits for those who had the faith & trust in me that I would see this through to the end. NO ONE got taken advantage of & if for some reasons things changed they got their deposit $$$$ back however long I may have retained them. I DO have "My Rockers" in stock as we speak, but am almost out of the 2nd. run of 50 sets. I DO NOT have the capitol available to myself to keep ordering sets to keep on the "Self". They say competition is a good thing, we'll see. All I can tell everyone is that I DO have dyno tests, both chassis & engine for a total of over 5 years. There are reviews & reports from various individuals about their results, so it's not just me speaking. There is to be some engine dyno testing to be done very shortly in Oregon. Maybe if a set was sent to this individual we can have some independent testing done by totally independent persons with no responsibilities to anyone, one way or the other. I know they work & haven't given anyone any problems. If you are reading this & in fact did have a problem I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT!!!!! Either publicly or a PM. I have close to 100 sets out there now. I have spent my time after work, nights & week-ends, assembling your parts so that you have complete assemblies ready to bolt-on when received & delivered as per my promises & in some cases even included shipping. What more can be asked of an individual who had an idea & a passion to make something better???? Will I be making a 3rd. run of 50 sets??? I guess time & interest & a true desire will tell.

    Tom Telesco
     
  15. Poppaluv

    Poppaluv I CALL WINNERS!!!

    I just reveived my set from Tom. They may not be installed for quite some time. but I got 'em!!!!!! I believe the increase h.p. approx. 25 or so.

    BTW if you're worried about gaining 1 hp at a risk of catastrphic failure, Let Gessler port and go through the heads and intake and that right there should be worth another 50 or so. So it CAN be done!!!!!! :TU:
     
  16. jamhdit

    jamhdit Just nuts about buick's

    i had gessler port the heads too. so I'm hoping to gain all the hp i can here. including the 1 or 2 with the roller bearings. so if I'm correct i should gain 40 with the porting 25 with the roller rockers and hoping to run 11-1 comp for a total gain of i hope around 75 hp. lets wait and see
     
  17. Poppaluv

    Poppaluv I CALL WINNERS!!!

    :TU: Please keep us informed!!!! :beer
     
  18. 87GN@Tahoe

    87GN@Tahoe Well-Known Member

    It's been a long time since I've been on...

    I Have been using tom's rockers for almost 15,000 miles... NO problems whatsoever...

    Immediately after installing them I felt a definite "seat of the pants" improvement..

    and they work under any valvecover.. including my mooneyes aluminum VC's

    I believe tom has posted back-to-back Chassis dyno results from his car with stock and his roll rockers.. i believe it was a 20-25 hp increase over stock, just be changing the rockers. AND I BELIEVE IT, just from my own experience.

    wes
     
  19. telriv

    telriv Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the kind words Wes. Just for everyone's info Wes lives in Ca. more than 2800 Miles away & is 21 yrs. old to boot with a '64 Riv. with more than 125K. Wes has stated his experiences along with MPG improvements. Anything else?????
     
  20. 87GN@Tahoe

    87GN@Tahoe Well-Known Member

    yeah, I'm 22 now:TU: :laugh:
     

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