Tom Telesco, working on GOOD pistons for the Nailhead!

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by SpecialWagon65, Nov 17, 2013.

  1. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel

    Custom Nailhead Pistons

    Tom, thank you for your persistence on performance for our Nailheads. I'll need a set sometime soon.


    With the design I sent them they will end up being a forged piston made of 4032 material. This way they should be fairly quiet at cold start & quiet warmed up. They will be a universal design. Diameter will range from 4.19-4.35". Each set will be custom made. The valve reliefs will have enough clearance for 1.94" valves & the pistons will fit either R or L. Compression heights & ring packages can mostly be accommodated. 1/16 & 3/16 or 5/64 & 3/16. They will be about (no set $$$ yet) around $750.00 which includes rings, pins & pin fitting. In the 5/64/3/16 ring package will only be available to what may be out there. 1/16/3/16 rings there are gaps in available sizes. On 401 the gap is between 4.22 & 4.25. The 425 is between 4.32 & 4.35. The dome will be higher to accommodate custom refinishing of the dome to get the exact compression ratio your looking for. Most 401 deck heights are 10.018-10.020 & 425's are 10.12-10.014 stock uncut decks. This is all I have at the moment. The more orders the $$$ could possibly go down. Again, by how much I don't know. This has taken well over a year to get this far.




    Tom T.

    ---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

    More from Tom:

    Since 4032 material has a higher silicone content than 2618 they require less clearance at .002". 4032 does not have as high of an expansion rate as 2618. I usually go with .0025" clearance. The dome is "Rounded" in the corners where the "Nail" normally will make contact with the head when they are cut. You want to keep the quench area, the flat part around the sides of the piston, no more than .050" & no less than .020". Even stock they are not at .050". The original shim steel head gasket compressed thickness of .015"-.016" with a piston in the hole .040" (Rarely) is at .055-.056". With the piston in the hole .055" it's now .070"-.071". Now add a composite gasket which can be anywhere from .036"-.042" compressed, depending on manufacturer, you now have a quench area of between .076"-.097". And after many rebuild these engines they wonder why they don't seem to run as good as they did originally, even when they were tired. You've all heard me say it in the past, "When you think you've covered all the details go back, I bet you missed a few". Not only checking valve-piston clearances but also dome clearances to the heads & sides. It ALL makes the difference between an engine that runs OK or an engine that seems to run better than it should. When using a composite gasket you can remove up to .040" from the deck without manifold alignment problems. I could spend the next couple of days typing & NEVER give ALL the info nec. And for all those thinking that $750.00 is too much $$$ for a FORGED piston, think about what the others will cost as this does NOT include rings, pins or pin fitting.






    this is excellent stuff Tom.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  2. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel


    From Tom:



    OK guys, this is going to be a GO. As of this moment a complete package will be $795.00 until the end of Jan. 2014. I am asking for a $500.00 deposit sent & made out to myself. A timeline will be 5-8 weeks. For a break-down of the normal $$$ before 1/31/14. Pistons, $695.00, $72.00 pins & locks, $40.00 pin fitting, $135.00 rings for a total of $937.00. This is less costly than some of the options out there just for forged pistons alone. 2/1/14 & after will be at least 10% more.
    This complete package will include conventional rings, pins, locks, (if using full floating pins) pin fitting & of course the pistons themselves. Moly top/cast iron 2nd. & quality oil rings. Some sizes will ONLY be available with cast rings. 5/64x3/16 or 1/16x3/16 to what is most readily available as far as rings go. The rings will be available by the various manufactures by Hastings, Perfect Circle or Total Seal. Don't forget there are gaps in the various ring sizes between the 401 & 425, but with the ones chosen there shouldn't be any major problems in the supply. Anything other than conventional will be additional $$$$, gapless, 1mm, 1/8 oil, low tension, plasma/moly, etc. In my mind by the manufacturer supplying the rings there can be NO questions as to the compatibility of the rings to the pistons being made. There won't have a question mark as to the rings being proper for the piston. No one can say, "You used the wrong rings", they were what was supplied by you, the manufacturer.
    The pistons can be made to accommodate just about any pin diameter. .927"/.980"/.990"/1.00". Depending on diameter will be 2.700"-2.800" long & made from "5100" steel. Unless in an all-out racing application these are plenty strong enough for our "Nails". Anything other can be accommodated for additional $$$.
    The diameters will cover from 4.1875"-4.350". The domes can be anywhere from .330"-.550". The compression heights will range from a minimum of 1.250"-2.000". The top ring land will be .300" thick to accommodate using NOS or pressure feeding. Also by going with this thick top land you will be able to more readily control the "Squish" area or correcting a mistake in ordering on YOUR part.
    YOUR responsibility is giving the correct dimensions for deck height after checking & correcting main saddle diameters & squaring of block if nec. Length of connecting rod AFTER reconditioning. What head gasket you will be using, shim steel (.015"-.016") compressed or one of the various composite head gaskets available compressed, (.036"-.042") depending on manufacturer.
    There will be enough "Meat" under the dome & valve reliefs to customize each individual compression ratio for YOUR application. Depending on what needs to be done to accomplish YOUR compression ratio is going to be enough to further lighten the piston. The piston, pins & locks should be about the same weights as stock & further lightening can be accomplished. With the "Nails" combustion chamber design most will tolerate about 10-1 compression with today's fuel & depending on what the dynamic compression is depending on the cam you will be using.
    This design will give you many options to customize YOUR "Nail" the way you see fit.
    Give me any feed-back you can think of or any questions you may have. I need to get this done & a check in my hands BEFORE 1/31/14.


    Tom T.​

    Tom Telesco
    Classic and Muscle Automotive
    465 Glenbrook Rd
    Stamford, CT 06906-1820
    Day Phone 203-324-6045 ET
    NailHead Mini-Starters '53-'66
    Adjustable Roller Tip Rocker Arms - All NailHeads

    "If I can't get it, you don't need it!"


    Thank you Tom-
     
  3. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Great news Tom, I'm in!
    Ted, good idea on starting a dedicated thread for this.

    I'm looking for near stock specs, but optimized for better performance. Should be good for 90% of us.
    I'll be working on the details, but basically:
    - 401, approx 0.030" over
    - 1/16" moly Top ring (will investigate avail diameters)
    - Quench distance 0.035", which is 0.020" below block deck using steel shim head gaskets. I'm figuring stock compression height + 0.020" should do it. A mild cut of the block deck might be necessary to clean up surface or fine tune the installed height. Sound good?
    - Static compression ratio approx 10.0 to 10.5. Will investigate Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) with near-stock (109 grind) and performance cams. If I remember correctly, about 8:1 DCR is good for a street car running premium.

    Questions:
    -Weight of stock piston/pin is about 950g. Even the Ros 425 forging I have are about 947g. What range of weights do you expect these to be?
    -Will valve reliefs be cut for acceptable valve-piston clearance (for mild performance cam), or will that need to be done afterwards?
    -Do we need to specify dome volume, or are they going by dome height?
    -Best ring choice would be ? I'm thinking 1/16" moly is preferred. Would 2nd choice be 5/32" moly or 1/16" cast?

    These builds will be for restorations, not race-cars. Goal is durability of forgings and optimizing performance. Planning on 2 sets at this time. Engines are not disassembled yet, so required overbore and deck heights are guesses.
     
  4. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    I actually went down and saw Tom this morning - brought my spare motor down and left it with him so he can spec out my set of pistons for me. I'm in line behind Yackster and John Codman to get my engine done....

    But that all brings up an important point - between me and Walt and who knows else, he only has 5 orders so far, and he needs 10 to make this deal happen. Pony Up, you gearheads! I need pistons and so do you!

    Walt - I think he'll be on here tonight to answer your questions.......
     
  5. 56buickboy

    56buickboy Well-Known Member

    I'm keen to send some $ for an order as well but I dont yet know what I need.

    My STD bore 425 block from Ohio arrived in NZ just before Christmas and is still in the shipping crate so I have no idea what I've got, and I'm working most of January so unlikely to have any useful details for a specific order.

    Maybe I get the bore size confirmed and then go on Toms "suggested size and specs" for a reliable user friendly street motor using steel gaskets? or just happy to send the dollars if this helps the process and get to the specifics when I can.
     
  6. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    I must thank you Ted for starting this new thread. I tried doing what you did & almost deleted the whole thing, TWICE!!!.

    Anyway, if you are even thinking about this in the near future get the deposit $$$ in. I need to get on board BEFORE 1/31/2014 to let them know how many sets will actually be needed. Not so much exact specs at the moment, but a confirmed order lets say within the next 4-6 months with a deposit BEFORE 1/31/2014. If I can get it in before the deadline they will hold true to their pricing. I just really need to know.

    I will try to answer questions to the best of my ability for anyone who may have questions.

    Walt, as far as weights they should be close to stock weights. The big advantage is the shorter pin at 2.700", 2.800" for 1.000" pins. Since the pins are a better/denser material than stock pins, this means if they were the same length as stock they would be heavier. The stock pins are 3.520" long. If I remember correctly the stock 401/425 pins are about 225 grams. So there will be a weight savings there. If you use smaller diameter pins the actual pin will be even lighter. You could bush the rod for a smaller diameter pin for further lightening & weight savings or different con rods. Don't forget FORGED pistons are naturally heavier than cast pistons. Once you have everything where you want it/end up to be they can be lightened further. An actual piston weight can get down to about 650 grams depending on bore diameter. They will be heavier than this out of the box. Rings sizes in 1/16th. will all have a moly top ring. Valve reliefs are big enough to use 1.94" intakes. Valve-piston clearances will have to be measured & cut deeper if nec. I'm told about .200" can be removed safely.
    Walt, going back to your guess of adding .020" to the compression height may not be enough. Going with an average deck height of 10.019"(401) (10.018"-10.020") with a stock rod length of 6.220". Now this can all vary by a few thousandths. The stock stroke is 3.64". Divide that in half you end with 1.820". Add 1.820" & 6.220" = 8.040". Take the deck height at 10.019" minus the 8.040" = 1.979" (zero deck height) less .020" for piston in hole leaves a compression height of 1.959". As you can see from the average compression distance of 1.913" of a stock piston we are adding .046" to the compression heights, not .020". That's why it's SO important to know the specs. BEFORE the final order is in. But, the saving grace is that the top ring land on the piston is .300" thick to also accommodate NOS or a pressure induction system. So if you err on the higher side, 1.979" instead of 1.933" there will be enough "Meat" to take up to .060" off the top outer diameter of the piston in a normally aspirated situation. This can also help you get your "Squish" area more dialed in.
    Will be using dome heights & not volumes. I know you like using mathematical figures Walt, but using 4 different compression ratio formulas, using all the same cc specs you will come up with 4 different compression ratios. I'm not talking small amounts here I'm talking about 3-4 points. Now none of this takes into consideration of how far past the bore diameter the head gasket actually sits away from the bore in cc's. Less with steel gaskets, more with composites. I actually use a Barrett to measure the real compression ratio. I take an old top ring, put some silicone in the top ring land, install the ring. Squeeze the ring & wipe off the excess silicone & install in the cylinder. Let it dry for a day, bolt on a compressed, old head gasket, either steel or composite of what you will be using, bring the piston to TDC & measure. I usually fill to the last thread of the spark plug upper thread. Lower to BDC & continue filling until the same. Now you divide one into the other & you have the EXACT compression ratio taking in ALL the variables. I know it's more time consuming, but you gotta do what you goota do!!!!
    See good for 90% of us is not GOOD ENOUGH. If you want it right you need to spend the time to take the nec. measurements.

    I've been at this since 4:30pm. I need to get some diner. I'll be back later to answer more questions if nec.


    Tom T.
     
  7. yacster

    yacster Lv the gun tk the Canolis

    Tom your tireless work and effort to make Nails run at the top of their performance potential is amazing to me. It is because of that I have changed my project back from the 10 different ways I was going to go, to putting a "Nail in it". I look forward to getting one of your nails down the track some where in the 12s on bias ply tires. Happy new year buddy. :grin:
     
  8. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    Now that is what I am talking about:laugh::laugh::laugh:
    Happy new year
     
  9. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    as far as head gaskets the fel-pro black head gaskets will be .033 when torqued down, the steel head gaskets are hard to find and big bucks the 425 ones are really rare. now that you can get your custom pin height where you want it with Toms pistons, why bother with steel head gaskets. I guess with the thinner steel gaskets you have to move the pin height less which makes a shorter and lighter piston. also with the .033 gasket you can have a 0 to -.005 for your piston dec height. Toms, pistons are the way to go, you can get the right pin height, thin rings and the strength of a forged piston.
     
  10. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    For anyone who may need them I have about 6-7 sets of 425 steel gaskets. Also 401's.

    I wish EVERYONE THE GREATEST NEWYEAR'S EVER!!!!!!

    Let's get these pistons to fruition. I want to see everyone who needs a set to get on the bandwagon.

    I know it's a bad time of the year & for many of us no time is the "Right" time.

    Maybe Walt you could post this info on 65GS????



    Tom T.
     
  11. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    Ross- were you able to get a hold of Tom? If not, he's probably at the shop all day today....1-203-324-6045
     
  12. weim55

    weim55 Well-Known Member

    Just thinkin' about ways to get the word out......

    Has anyone thought of posting about this on the BCA forums or the HAMB as an example? Gotta be a good number of people doin' nails for rods or restos. Others need to know about this....

    Steve weim55 Colorado
     
  13. 66BulldogGS

    66BulldogGS Platinum Level Contributor

    I would love to get in on this but unfortunately we haven't started on the engine for the car yet so there is no way of knowing exactly what I will need. Ill definitely be looking into these when I get to that point. Hopefully later this year. Keeping my fingers crossed my income tax will help fund the engine and transmission build this year.
     
  14. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    As I stated I need a deposit for confirmation to get this thing rolling BEFORE 1/31/2014. I don't need the exact specs. as of this moment. I'm sure the majority will be as Walt stated at 80-90%. And, there are options to the pistons themselves which will make them more universal as I have stated.
    It would be GREAT, as my computer skills are very lacking, if someone could forward or take out of this context the info I have posted to other boards. Such as 65GS, the Hamb, NailHead Buick, the BCA or any others you can think of that don't normally frequent V8Buick.
    I know it's a bad time of year with tax season or other concerns. But after working on this for a little over a year I'm kinda disappointed I haven't gotten ANY phone calls or PM's regarding all of this info.


    Tom T.
     
  15. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Rewritten....
    I'll post this on www.65gs.com and the yahoo nailhead group.
    Feel free to post elsewhere.
    Tom, want to change anything?

    >>>>
    Forged Pistons, Group Buy!!
    Nailhead Guru Tom Telesco is teaming up with RaceTec Pistons to offer customized forged pistons for our 401/425 Nailheads.

    Final specs for your order are not needed at this time, but a deposit to hold your place is needed soon.
    Deposit due by Jan 31, 2014.

    Here's your chance to get strong, forged piston sets made to your specs.
    Primary benefits are strength, optimized quench and compression ratio to produce efficient combustion to reduce detonation and maximize power. Low drag and lighter weight configurations available.

    Details:
    - Diameter will range from 4.1875" (401, std) to 4.350" (425, 0.0337" over), but is limited to available ring sizes.
    - Material is 4032 forged aluminum. Perfect for street use since it doesn't expand much when hot..piston-to-bore clearance can be kept at a tight 0.0025" to eliminate piston slap on cold startups.
    - Durable for race use....
    - Features a thick 0.300"upper ring land to withstand nitrous and boosted applications.
    - Compression height/pin height made to your specs for optimum Quench/squish distance.
    - Weights will start at a stock 950 g, with lighter versions available depending on your configuration.

    - The valve reliefs will have enough clearance for 1.94" valves
    - Compression ratio/ dome height made to order, from 0.330"- 0.550".
    - Pin diameter. 0.927", 0.980", 0.990" or stock 1.00". Pressed or full floating. Pins made from 5100 steel.

    - Ring sets, included in the deal, would be Hastings, Perfect Circle, or Total Seal. Cast iron or Moly top ring.
    - stock 5/64" top/second, 3/16" oil. Moly or cast iron.
    - or Lower-drag 1/16" , 3/16" oil. Moly or cast iron.
    - custom rings avail at extra cost.

    As of this moment a complete package will be $795.00 until the end of Jan. 2014.
    includes rings, pins & pin fitting.
    $500 Deposit due by 1/31/2014
    2/1/14 & after will be at least 10% more.

    For more information, visit V8Buick.com
    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?275648-Tom-Telesco-working-on-GOOD-pistons-for-the-Nailhead!

    or contact Tom Telesco directly:
    Tom Telesco
    Classic and Muscle Automotive
    465 Glenbrook Rd
    Stamford, CT 06906-1820
    Day Phone 203-324-6045 ET
    NailHead Mini-Starters '53-'66
    Adjustable Roller Tip Rocker Arms - All NailHeads

    "If I can't get it, you don't need it!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  16. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Walt, the only thing I would change is "Low Drag". I would state "Lower Drag" 1/16th. rings. Can be good for a 15HP increase alone. Some may think it also means "Low Tension", which it DOES NOT include.

    Thank you immensely for doing this Walt & Ted. With my puter skills I would have probably lost it all & would have to start all over.

    Thank you guys again.


    Tom T.
     
  17. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel

    I'll be sending a deposit soon. I screwed up 2 engines with the egge things, must make them right.
     
  18. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Guys' feel free to post my updated rewrite (above) on other sites like HAMB and BCA.
    Bob G will be adding a blurb to his 'Wild about Cars' site and newsletter. Tom, he'd like a pic if you can get someone to do that.
    BTW, if you haven't been to W.A.C., it's an awesome site. Loaded with neat old pics, articles, and stories.
    http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/
     
  19. 56buickboy

    56buickboy Well-Known Member

    Just posted on The Hamb classifieds and BCA ( Buick Buy / Sell )
     
  20. tyoneal

    tyoneal Active Member

     

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