This is still the " help from above section " ?????

Discussion in 'Help From Above' started by GKMoz, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. custom

    custom Got Kenora?

    Re: Horrors can break faith (Re: This is still the " help from above section " ?????

    Edouard,
    You say that you struggle with questions about accepting religious teachings much like your Father based on what he witnessed during WWII but yet give credence to the teachings of Heidegger, who not only embraced Nazism, but was an active participant.
    Yes people, and I would hope that it would be the case of your Father's experience with Christians, should show sensitivity to what folks like him went thru.
    But what your father experienced confirms the fact that man in no way can exterminate evil because each of us is evil.
    We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.....doesn't matter if by an inch or a light year. And the vain philosophy of self absorbed men such as Heidegger will ever save the souls of his fellow man.

    As a side note.....how refreshing it would be to find professors on college campuses who would be willing to actually look into the Word of God and engage in respectful intellectual debates as opposed to following the progressive liberal path of shutting down debate and attempting to belittle those who are Christian. Proved by what your Berkley (no surprise) professor said at the very opening of your course..........in other words tell me you're a Christian and as a superior elite thinker, I'll do my best to humiliate you.
     
  2. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Getting your hands dirty with scripture (Re: " help from above section " ?????)

    Dear Mark and V-8 Buick "spiritualists,"

    Indeed you are correct Heidegger embraced Nazism for arguably the worst possible reasons: as a "improvement" upon earlier societies based on Christianity. I had never looked into Heidegger's personal life, it turns out he was born a Catholic and even studied theology:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Heidegger

    Wikipedia doesn't explain what activities he engaged in during the Nazi period. But it appears the Allies concluded he was mostly an "egghead" and therefore relatively harmless.

    The Wikipedia article goes on to note that Heidegger married in a Catholic and Protestant ceremony. He had several extramarital affairs, include with two of his students. One of those students was Jewish and the other had one Jewish parent. Heidegger assisted one of them to leave Germany before the war started.

    A few months before his death, he met with Bernhard Welte, a Catholic priest. The exact nature of the conversation is not known, but what is known is that it included talk of Heidegger's relationship to the Catholic Church. So did Heidegger ultimately have second thoughts about his attempt to secularize society? Apparently we shall never know.

    As to my own philosophy, I have tried to incorporate Heidegger's notions on existentialism. In particular, what is it to encounter something outside of one's own being. However, that requires me to develop a way of rejecting Heidegger's notion of "authentic being."

    Hmm, I'm not sure I accept this part of your phrase: "man in no way can exterminate evil because each of us is evil." Theology has two related concepts: sin and evil. How these two interplay does matter. In my cosmology, evil exists as a kind of field that perverts all things. Not simply do human's sin because their "moral compass" is disturbed, but what it is to be human has never been fulfilled because of the influence of this field. I'm not sure, but I think that's a more common way to think about the distinction between evil and sin.

    Well, I was trying to be a college professor and was passed over for those who more closely matched the political ideology. I am deeply concerned about the lack of objectivity in academia. For a time, academics seemed to be able to continue to produce decent scholarship even with their bias. However, I think the quality of research in all fields is declining and doing so because it is more important to agree with your professors than to discover something new. Basically, that's why I didn't make the cut. I was trying to do research within an accepted paradigm, but my first PhD prototype proved very strongly that the paradigm was seriously flawed. My attempt to explain why my first prototype didn't produce the learning I was expecting led me to look into more philosophical ways to understand how learning occurred. It potentially could have seriously changed education, but as a lone-wolf I couldn't buck the whole educational research establishment. Instead, the students around me who simply extended what their professors had already done, got the referrals they needed to get hired.

    However, I also think that the religious community needs to "think outside the box" in order to challenge the intellectuals who insist secularism is better. Intellectual secularism is embraced with something of the zeal of a person who recently quit smoking: "the air is so much fresher and food tastes better too." The truth is that secularism has created two of the worse atrocities of humankind: the Nazis and Stalinist Russia. Still for many, secularism is new and progressive, while religion is conservative and obsolete. Can we find fresh ways to reexamine the scriptures so that they seem relevant to our modern world?

    Sometime ago I had a bit of an insight that still intrigues me. The story of Adam and Eve is one of the more "annoying" books in the Bible. On the face of it, it seems like a trite morality play that doesn't belong in an account of how the world came into being. Compared to the first account of creation in Genesis, it seems very much out of place. Yet, perhaps there is more meat than the simple story suggests. We are told that God punishes Eve by forcing her bare children in her womb - is there any historical event that could possibly correspond to such a thing?

    Well, Paleontology suggests there is. The CretaceousTertiary (KT) extinction event is the time when the dominant animals switched from reptiles to mammals. It is about the only known event that fits the bill. Could there be a reference to an extinction event long before the rise of human beings and could there be some kind of moral message associated with extinction events? Is the story of Adam and Eve simply a story about how sin came into the world or something deeper? Could it be account of how humans over deep time differentiated themselves from the animal kingdom? Clearly, only human beings are capable of judging right and wrong - is that part of the message here? If so, could there be a profound lesson about the role gender plays in love and humanity?

    All this is conjecture, but it is the sort of thing that ties the scripture to very real questions in science. Perhaps the Bible can provide insights into events we didn't even know happened until science revealed them to us.

    Edouard
     
  3. GKMoz

    GKMoz Gary / Moz

  4. schlepcar

    schlepcar Gold Level Contributor

    Re: Horrors can break faith (Re: This is still the " help from above section " ?????


    I guess I will have to take a closer look at all the reasons to boycott Christianity as far as a "sort of" believer I have came to be. I remember working fifty hours a week and passing in the hallway of the University of Michigan,where I spent all my free time after work. There were always a bunch of Socrates,Nietzsche,and Kierkegaard wanna bees. A lot of them would try to hit me up for twenty bucks as I used the college ATM. The world really has no use for "idle hands" and when I use the K.I.SS.
    terminology I am referring to very simple minded people like myself. My friend has two autistic sons who are also very simple. Either one of them can recall information that is not real to most people,but nevertheless is real. I think one should be very careful about who they idolize. We have already lost Clearwater,Florida to a bunch of crazies. As far as what Jesus can and cannot do,I think any mentally challenged person could answer that.
     
  5. Eric68GS

    Eric68GS Well-Known Member

    What separates us all isn't God's word. It's free will. Some of us will choose to believe and trust in God's word while others will not. Those that do trust in His word are not perfect, nor should we act like we are. Anything can be your "god". Money, sex, drugs, any obsession that rules out decision making. But there is only one God the Creator. He wants us to let Him rule our thoughts, actions and words. Yet free will doesn't allow Him to impose that on us. It has to be our choice.
    At church on Sunday, pastor made a good illustration. We have a church band and he pointed to all of the instruments around him. He said you can use these to play music to praise God, or you can use them to go out and play at bars singing about violence (sex,drugs and rock and roll). See it's not necessarily the instrument, rather how it's used. We are instruments of God, mind, body and soul. It's our choice. It always will be. God's deepest hope is that we choose to be instruments that bring glory to Him.
    We can give God a bad name and we have. We can be weak Christians and we have. That's what has allowed the world to turn in the direction it had (to an extent). I say to an extent, because I believe God has had a plan for creation from the time He created it. That He knew we'd be exactly where we are today. That exactly where we are today is part of His plan. I also believe that His plan is outlined throughout the Bible with the climax in revelations. I believe we are approaching that time (no predictions here!). Truth is set to the side in today's society. I don't force my beliefs on anyone. I just encourage them to seek the truth. Unbiasedly seek the truth. Sorry for being all over the place in my thoughts!
     
  6. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Interesting but "old school" (Re: " help from above section " ?????)

    Dear Gary, schlepcar, Eric, and V-8 Buick Spiritualities

    Sorry, I didn't even have time to read this posting until this morning. In addition to this thread, I have been trying to rescue spirituality in this thread about ancient civilizations and religion:

    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?300397-Monolith-found-from-Graham-Hancock%92s-%93lost-civilization%94

    It takes a lot of time write these replies and honestly, it isn't time I really have to spare!

    I did make a quick pass at Francis Schaefer this morning. Here is the Wikipedia article on him:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer

    I definitely find something appealing to his point of view. I especially like his response to B. F. Skinner's book "Beyond Freedom and Dignity." Skinner was one of the most destructive thinkers in psychology and sent educational methodology in the wrong direction for more than 50 years.

    I did find one of Schaefer's book online - Genesis in Space and Time:

    http://www.havenofbliss.com/blog/5043654-Francis-A-Schaeffer-Genesis-in-Space-and-Time.pdf

    Unfortunately, I find myself in conflict with Schaefer because once more he starts making a case for an omnipotent, infallible, and benevolent God. On page 5, he argues this four-fold distinction:

    Schaefer proceeds to conclude that only option "(3) Everything began with a persona l something" is viable. My trouble with this idea comes straight from the way even Schaefer presents it. To restate, Schaefer writes: "This leads us, of course, to the modern notion of Being" (my emphasis.) If the divinity in question was eternal, how could human beings have any other notion of divinity?

    My trouble isn't simply philosophical but fundamentally spiritual in nature. As noted in this thread and others, there is clear evidence of human religious practice going back 14,000 years at the Gbekli Tepe site:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

    Gbekli Tepe is clearly a polytheistic temple. So in approximate terms, human spirituality has been polytheistic for over twice as long as monotheistic. Why did our relationship with spiritual things apparently end up being so flawed for so long? It is an argument that goes beyond logical inconsistency to raise questions about the benevolence of the eternal single deity. It simply isn't nice to leave the human confused about what spirituality really is all about for so long.

    Of course one can try to claim the failure is the result of the ancients rather than God. However, it is clear that those ancients were completely stupid. They were able to raise up 20 foot long, 20 ton megaliths - so they were sophisticated enough to accomplish some engineering we would be hard pressed to replicate to this day. Moreover, blaming those ancient peoples amounts to blaming the victim. Unless, we have clear evidence that they knew of the one true God and nonetheless insisted on worshiping idols, we can only assume they didn't know there was one God - is that their fault?

    The other point that bothers me with Schaefer's stance is that it seems to me to be a "back door" attempt to invoke the ontological argument for the existence of God. I'll be the first to admit it is a very elegant argument if it worked. Alas, the very possibility that this discussion is happening proves it doesn't. If God's existence could be established as a matter of logical necessity, no one could argue.

    I double-checked on the origins of infinity and the concept has both ancient Greek and Indian origins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

    So as I suspected, infinity would have entered into Christianity in medieval times with the introduction of the Aristotelian cosmology to underpin Christianity. The first Christians would not have held this view of God because they no concept of infinity. Nonetheless their faith in the saving power of Jesus was at least as strong as ours today. Considering the harrowing account of what some of the early saints and martyrs went through - perhaps their faiths were stronger than our "modern" faith today. Given that the notion of an omnipotent, infallible, and benevolent God was inferred from scripture, rather than found directly in the scripture, I think it is fair to ask if that inference is indeed correct. At the same time, if the first Christians didn't need this philosophical complexity to believe in the saving power of Jesus, why do we?

    I suppose I have to ask the fellow Christians on this board: "If Jesus can bring about your salvation, but isn't infinite, isn't that good enough for you?"

    Edouard
     
  7. schlepcar

    schlepcar Gold Level Contributor

    I sometimes think you should be the one standing in front of the "modern" church. It seems a lot of people need this type of logical reasoning to feel like there is indeed salvation available for everyone. I have never pushed my views toward anyone,but I think many could benefit from some of your comparisons. I have personally avoided a lot of philosophy of others because I am arrogant enough to create my own through space and time. It is not that I don't benefit from reading some of it,I just think a lot it has practical application from a spiritual perspective(simply my bias). Every time I read your posts you point out different angles at viewing the subject matter. It is too bad that most people have tunnel vision.Dan
     
  8. custom

    custom Got Kenora?


    GKMoz,
    Ravi Z. is and has been one of my personal heroes of the faith and I can honestly say his teachings and approach to engaging non-believers in the manner in which he does is truly inspiring.
    Any Christian who is able to garner the level of respect of even the most hardened non-believers and is welcomed to speak in some of the most threatening environments as he is should serve as a challenge to us all. As Christians we limit ourselves by not really educating ourselves on what people believe and why......"Let My People Think"......perfect title.
     
  9. Eric68GS

    Eric68GS Well-Known Member

    Good points. I think as Christians , we obviously believe in God and the word of God. What we don't do, is put ourselves in others shoes to try and see where they are coming from in their beliefs. If we just take the Bible and pound it over people's heads, that's not going to make them believers. But finding compassion for them and understanding and love yet still standing firm in our faith and being able to convey why we stand firm might make them curious as to how they can find that same thing. Memorizing a few verses may be beneficial to us in our daily lives, but to a non believer it may mean nothing. We must find common ground and share the love of Christ.
     
  10. GKMoz

    GKMoz Gary / Moz

    No "Christian" can convert anyone regardless of how much love they have toward an unbeliever !
    And having love towards others is not the worlds type of love, it is a sincere desire that ALL should come to the knowledge of Jesus saving and attoning work on their behalf.
    We can repeat scripture until we are blue in the face & sometimes it just does not click (1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ) if a persons heart is drawn to God? he will respond by the will of God the father!
    Jesus plainly said that none that you have given me will be lost ( paraphrased ) that is Predestination / election and no one who is not called will respond.
    I am not thrilled with that given I have friends & relatives who refuse the good news of the Gospel ! but it is what God has said & by faith I have to accept it (and I do ) with some sadness.

    Evidence for God from Science: Christian Apologetics
    What is Love as Defined by the Bible?
    by Rich Deem

    What is love?
    Everybody seems to believe that love is a good thing. However, not all agree what is love. Is love that warm touchy-feely feeling a person has when he is with a familiar person? According to the Bible, love is caring in action. Love isn't what we feel, but what we do.

    Rich Deem
    Introduction
    The true meaning of love, as defined in the Bible, has been corrupted in the common usage of our English language and society. Most often, love is confused with infatuation - that elated, "high" feeling we get when we "fall in love." This kind of "love" is something that lasts typically less than a year, and unless replaced by true love, results in broken relationships.

    Origin of Love
    The Bible indicates that love is from God. In fact, the Bible says "God is love."1 Love is one of the primary characteristics of God. Likewise, God has endowed us with the capacity for love, since we are created in His image. This capacity for love is one of the ways in which we are "created in the image of God."2

    Different Kinds of Love
    The Greek language (the language of the New Testament) uses two different words to describe and define love. The most commonly used Greek word translated "love" in the New Testament is "agape." This love is represented by God's love for us. It is a non-partial, sacrificial love probably best exemplified by God's provision for our rebellion:

    "For God so loved (agape) the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

    The gift3 of God's son as a provision for sin4 was given to all humans,5 regardless of who we are.6 God's love is unconditional.7

    In contrast, our love is usually conditional and based upon how other people behave toward us. This kind of love is based upon familiarity and direct interaction. The Greek word "phileo" defines this kind of love, often translated "brotherly love." Phileo is a soulish (connected through our emotions) kind of love - something that can be experienced by both believers and non-believers. This is in contrast to agape, which is love extended through the spirit. Agape love requires a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, since the non-regenerated soul is unable to love unconditionally. Agape love gives and sacrifices expecting nothing back in return.8

    The Indestructible Book DVD SetThose who have studied the Bible and know about Peter's character know that Peter was ruled by his emotions and often responded to situations emotionally, rather than thinking before acting. Sometimes this kind of response led to good things (e.g., Peter walking on the water to meet Jesus - Matthew 14:25-33), whereas at other times, Peter's response was inappropriate (he was interrupted by God while suggesting that he build three tabernacles, one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration - Matthew 17:4). Peter was quite proficient at expressing phileo love, and was probably very popular because of his dynamic character. However, God wants us to express both phileo love and agape love. Peter expressed this idea in his first epistle:

    Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love [phileo] of the brethren, fervently love [agape] one another from the heart, (1 Peter 1:22)

    Believers in the churches of Asia Minor had already expressed phileo love, but Peter was encouraging them to fervently express agape love as well. If you are a Christian, you are encouraged to express both soulish, familiar love and spirit-led unconditional love. The goal of the Christian is to become "partakers of the divine nature."9 In Peter's second epistle, he says that we are to behave with moral excellence. However, this is not enough. Christians tend to be characterized by non-believers as telling other people how they ought to behave. However, the Christian life should not be restricted to just moral excellence, but, above all else, should include both phileo and agape love:

    Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness [phileo], and in your brotherly kindness, love [agape]. (2 Peter 1:5-7)

    The most famous biblical chapter on love is from 1 Corinthians:

    If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

    Fireproof DVDThis is a description of agape love. It is described as being patient, kind, truthful, unselfish, trusting, believing, hopeful, and enduring. It is not jealous, boastful, arrogant, rude, selfish, or angry. True love never fails. The description perfectly fits God's love toward us, and should be the way we love each other and God. However, I have never met any person who perfectly fulfills this biblical definition of love. The Bible says that this unconditional love is more important than everything else (a partial list includes oratory ability, prophecy, knowledge, faith, philanthropy and hope). All of these things, which are "good" things, will pass away. Only love is eternal, since love will be the basis of eternal life. In fact, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He said, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." (Matthew 22:37)10 He then added that the second most important law was "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Jesus said that the entire law was dependent upon these two commandments.10

    Conclusion Top of page
    If you are not a Christian, I hope you desire to express love as defined in the Bible. However, wanting to do so and attempting to do so in the power of your own will is guaranteed to fail. This kind of love is only possible through relying on the power of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. Even if you are a Christian, you will not succeed if you do not abide in Christ. May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ
     
  11. Ken Mild

    Ken Mild King of 18 Year Resto's

    Very well said Moz. I understand man's need to have this subject, the gospel, explained to them in intellectual terms, terms they can "relate" to. We all have that tendency. The problem with relying wholly on dumbing down this spiritual power to man's intellectual level is that it can sometimes ignore or remove the faith aspect which is mandatory in receiving this crucial, powerful, SPIRITUAL message.
     
  12. GKMoz

    GKMoz Gary / Moz

    John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know , and testify that we have seen ; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things?

    Jesu's own words, not mine to another seeker of the truth of God !
    If a person is looking for THEE truth with humility & repentance they will find it in God's SON Jesus.
    "We speak that we do know , and testify that we have seen ; " we too who believe have "seen & know" will you see & know ?

    God Bless in your endeavor for Truth :)
     
  13. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Not different - earlier. (Re: " help from above section " ?????)

    Dear Erik, Gary, Ken, and V-8 Buick "spiritualists,"

    Sorry, I was trying to make what I hoped was a simple point but perhaps I went too far into technical details.

    No wait, that isn't my point at all. I'm asking about spirituality before monotheism. We have clear evidence of it from sites like Gbekli Tepe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

    This site is over 10,000 years older than anything that can be shown archeologically to have been part of today's Bible. Still, I think there is a good case to be made that these people were human as we are and had aspirations that we would uphold. In particular, dating of the monuments shows a period of comparative peace that lasted thousands of years. If so, it would be one of the longest periods of humans peacefully coexisting in some sort of civilized setting on record.

    These are people before our faith traditions, but who nonetheless seem "headed in the right direction" even if (as far as we can tell) they didn't directly contribute to the mythology that is in the Bible. However, if human spirituality is genuine, then surely these very early creators of civilization were also spiritual and their spirituality seems to have lead them to a peaceful civilization.

    However, if there has always been only one God, these poor folks were "off the beam." Their monuments are beyond doubt polytheistic.

    Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all insist that God existed throughout time. If so, human spirituality seems marooned before the first Jewish traditions got started. I'm left with two alternatives neither or which I can accept:

    1. Ancient people's expressed an energetic but nonetheless primitive spirituality that wasn't sufficient to grasp the reality of the one true God.
    2. Ancient people's where simply wrong and engaged in a kind of folly for thousands of years before finally the Jewish people started to get the correct view of the situation.

    Either way, God disinterest seems - can't find any other words for it - cruel. I would much prefer some way to understand the situation that avoids this collision at the point where monotheism emerges.

    As an example but purely a creation of my imagination, I've wondered about spirituality as a process much like a image coming into focus for a camera or telescope. For a Christian, the point of focus would be the ministry and passion of Jesus. So as you move into earlier historical periods, the image would become more blurry. The Jewish people managed to observe the reality of monotheism before others. Since Jesus would arrive in their midst that should represent a superior observation point. Those other cultures would interpret their own blurry image within their own cultural traditions. So Egypt had a religion that fit their culture, Greece their culture, and so on. Polytheism would on this view would be a misinterpretation of the distorted image. So perhaps the Christian view of heaven with God and angels or perhaps the communion of saints might appear to be a polytheistic spiritual world in this blurry view. On this view, ancient spirituality ends up grasping some aspect of the final truth and more importantly participating in a process that would bring spirituality into focus. So when Saint Paul went to preach to the Greeks and others, they immediately "got the picture" literally. Their spirituality was trying to grasp this image all along, but it couldn't become clear until after Jesus had come.

    Okay, this is just my daydreaming, but somehow I won't want to leave those people at Gbekli Tepe as somehow less human than I am. I don't think that is a judgement any of us is entitled to make.

    Edouard
     
  14. Ken Mild

    Ken Mild King of 18 Year Resto's

    First of all unless we can get past believing the earth is billions of years old, we will stumble and fall. https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/how-old-is-the-earth/

    No human being was ever put on this earth to do anything other than seek Him and fellowship with Him until we are called home to Him for eternity. Some have completely hardened their hearts and will not entertain that He exists, although they will be without excuse in the day of judgment. Someone mentioned pre-destination earlier and it's absolutely true. Those of us who are drawn to God (and there is no other way you come to the knowledge of Him lest He Himself draw you) should get on our knees each day and thank Him for planting that seed in our hearts, the desire to know Him and serve Him. The rest know he exists or at the very least know that "something greater" is out there, whatever "something" is. "Something" can be their eventual realization that Jesus is real, or "something" can be the devil's workshop, creating all kinds of perverted beliefs that seem perfectly plausible to these individuals or to the world ultimately leading to their eternal separation from Him if time runs out on them.

    Stay with me here.

    This old civilization you pointed out, (not as old as you think), are no less considered precious to God as you or I. Before Christ came and left His Holy Spirit with us as our Mediator to God in this world, God spoke directly to man and gave His Spirit specifically to those who would obey and spread His word. Man spread God's word throughout the world at that time. God gave the law to Moses and Moses gave it to man. We did not have Jesus on earth yet but people were told about the One True God and what His righteous requirements are (although Jesus is our righteousness now) and still worshiped statues and idols made by man. It is our human, fallen nature and constant tendency to create our own worship-able things. God seems to never be enough for us. But I digress. This ancient civilization, whether they had been alerted to the One True God or not, I wonder if this is even worth pursuing an answer to? If you find an answer, what will it do for you? If you do not find an answer, what will it do TO you? Are you basing the truth of God on past civilizations we know little about to prove God's reality? This shows little faith.

    Here are my thoughts. For what they are worth. One can spend an entire life intellectually hypothesizing on whether God is real or just an idea and never come to a conclusion or one can yield to Him and ask Him into their life because they want to know Him and want Him to be real to them. And He is true to His word. Once He comes in and draws you closer, you are no longer searching or guessing. I am not taling about asking Him to give you a sign to prove He is real. That is the heart of a non-believer. I am talking about by FAITH, asking Him in. God cannot lie. So when He says in His word that without faith it is impossible to please Him, He means what He says.
     
  15. GKMoz

    GKMoz Gary / Moz

    This is where I come to in almost every situation or conversation? the bottom line !

    " I am talking about by FAITH, asking Him in. God cannot lie. So when He says in His word that without faith it is impossible to please Him, He means what He says "
     
  16. elagache

    elagache Platinum Level Contributor

    Must science and faith never meet? (Re: " help from above section " ?????)

    Dear Ken and V-8 Buick spiritualists,

    Okay, I'm also unsure what billions of years mean. I'm willing to consider that our "yardstick" for measuring geological time is flawed, but that really doesn't help.

    If everything is a gift from God, then surely science is also a gift. Early scientists were deeply faithful men and many like Descartes insisted that they were trying to do God's work in their research. Science didn't start out at all as an attack on Christianity. Most historians of science agree that science "drifted apart" from faith as the view that science represented continued to diverge from religious doctrine.

    Okay, exactly how old Gbekli Tepe - never mind. What archeology does find are layer upon layer of human activity. Those layers go back a lot longer than any place where we can verify humans got the word that there was only one God. Now you can look at it in one of two ways: either humans spent a lot of time aware of one God and deliberately doing something else - why? Survival was hard (it still is.) Human's really don't have the luxury of getting their spirituality wrong. Alternatively, science is all wrong about this. However, is archeology is wrong, what about physics, chemistry, medicine, etc? We don't merely accept that science works - we depend on it. Otherwise you would never be able to read this reply.


    Well, I have "asked" and I didn't get the answer I need. My faith ran into a brick wall and that brick wall is a personal experience of the Devil acting a road-block to my best intentions. I also experience what amounts to a "rescue" but that rescue isn't a God as you are experiencing it. It is more like gateway into that world of Jesus's second coming. My spirituality is much more like a path to experiencing Jesus as the disciples and Jesus's followers did. I see the world of the second coming as deeply human with everything good and absolutely nothing bad in ways that are as extreme as changing the way matter exists. These experiences don't leave me apart from science, I'm seeing what science teaches us as a way to understand the transitions that are to come.

    I suppose this is one of those "agree to disagree" moments. I really tried to be spiritual in the way you are trying to nudge me, it just didn't work for me in ways I can't explain. Over time my spiritual experiences changed and with it, came a kind of hope that I never had before. A hope that didn't force me to wear a scientific hat when I had to deal with the scientific world and then switch to a religious hat in order to make sense of faith. I wish everyone could have this kind of completeness, but perhaps indeed this will have to wait for the second coming itself.

    Edouard
     
  17. Ken Mild

    Ken Mild King of 18 Year Resto's

    I get what you are saying and yes "wisdom", "godly wisdom" is a gift. Science is not a gift from God. Science is man created. Science is man's wisdom and interpretation of his surroundings. Scientific wisdom can be relied upon just enough to adapt to your surroundings and live life, or scientific wisdom and interpretation of its results can be mis-used and relied upon above the Word of God.

    Grapes and wine are a gift from God as well. Modestly consumed wine can bring us enjoyment. Abused it can ruin you. ;)

    " However, is archaeology is wrong, what about physics, chemistry, medicine, etc? We don't merely accept that science works - we depend on it. Otherwise you would never be able to read this reply."

    You are over simplifying. Physics, chemistry, medicine....All of these things can be used for good and ARE used for good and we have certainly benefited from them in many ways. Many misuse these professions or let these professions become their god. While it seems impossible, it is very possible to be a believer in Christ relying on Him through faith and still be a scientist or a doctor. In just the same way it is possible to be a believer in Christ and drink a glass of wine without drinking 20 more. We make the choice. If used properly, all of these things can be good.

    "A hope that didn't force me to wear a scientific hat when I had to deal with the scientific world and then switch to a religious hat in order to make sense of faith."

    I can't help you with this conundrum, the need to merge science or man's wisdom with faith and the Spirit of God and God's wisdom and promises. They co-exist (not like the bumper sticker either). It is when we rely and trust the former over the latter that we derail. BTW, I am not naive. I do have the ability to trust science and have faith in Christ. For instance, I know 212 degrees F is boiling for water etc. But I do not stare at the cosmos and think anything other than what an awesome God we have.
     
  18. GKMoz

    GKMoz Gary / Moz

    I may have inadvertently clouded some people's thinking by bringing up election /predestination?
    My apologies :) I read this today and it is appropriate !
    C.H.Spurgeon: " No true seeker is decreed to wrath "
    When you seek him with all your heart & soul? HE will be found !

    God bless
     
  19. Ken Mild

    Ken Mild King of 18 Year Resto's

    It's cool I knew exactly what you meant Moz. The Lord calls all of us, we either eventually respond (open the door) when He knocks or we don't. Either way, He already knows who will and who will not.
     
  20. schlepcar

    schlepcar Gold Level Contributor

    I'm thinking a lot of people will deny him more than the three times before the cock crows......the story of Peter is often told to people who are new to accepting Jesus. I think knowledge is a gift,but science is often just a tainted word that people who are not necessarily scientists use to sway voters. If anything is billions of years old,it would be the fact that "some men you just can't reach". Not biblical,but more to the point.
     

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