The X-FACTOR Returns!!!

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by 71skylark3504v, May 8, 2008.

  1. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    Ive been watching this thread for a while and Id like to preface what Im about to write with this opening statement.
    I applaud both Carson and Mark. Carson for his perseverance and patience and for his willingness to experiment with innovation on an engine that doesnt have the following of the BBB and under his circumstances with school and such. Mark for your willingness to actually build innovative equipment for both big and small block Buicks especially in the turbo realm. I also want to point out that Im not complaining about the quality of the workmanship of the products in any way.
    Now that I got that out of the way Id just like to ask who designed the intake and why would anybody think that Carsons engine would be a good candidate for that type of manifold? Very few people that run 350s on this board or anywhere else could utilize it. I cant believe that somebody hasnt brought this up before. Carson would need a cam around 240-250 degrees duration @.050 to just start to use this intake (and all the associated goodies that go with it). From what I see in the pictures X-Factor cant be good for much on any NORMALLY ASPIRATED engine that doesnt make peak HP above 6500 rpm and even then it would be of little help because you would loose tons of torque at low rpm and never make up for it.
    Funnel shaped intake runners arent the way to go. Effectively you only have runners which are mere inches long. A SLIGHT funnel shape works on certain engines and rpm use but I doubt this is one of them. Also Im hoping that there are dividers running down each runner and there may well be otherwise there goes the torque and up goes the rpm. On a turbo or N20 engine with excess low end torque it may work great and help get the air into the engine.
    All you have to do is check any manufacturer or custom intake designer and I doubt youll find an intake that looks like the X-factor and there is only one reason. Look at the intakes available for the 455 from TA or Edelbrock. It doesnt matter what brand the engine is because they all use the same principles. You wont see any kind of noticeable funnel action in any of them. Long consistent runners for lower rpm and shorter ones for higher rpm. The one cast intake that uses a funnel effect and very short runner dividers is the Offy and in the single quad version that is a surefire way to loose NOTICABLE torque across the board for very few HP at an almost unusable and very narrow rpm band.
    Even with the baffling mix of early dyno runs Carson proved that it didnt work well when he went to the drags and the car ran substantially slower with it. With all the extras he added it is now only as fast as it was. He took a very mild great running combo, for what he had into it, and sunk a LOT of $$$$ into it and now it is just a run of the mill performer. If it was me the first thing I wouldve done was switched out manifolds either going back to the dyno or the track or both. Changing anything else at the same time negates any chance of knowing what did what.
    Finally I dont want to sound like a shill for TA but they have a very nice dual plane intake that would work well for Carsons setup but because of information coming out of this board that it is not worth anything from people that generally only have "seat of the pants dynos" he went with one that only cost $$$$!!! And gained how much?
    A couple of quick thoughts:
    There is no way a Holley DP on a single plane intake gets better mileage than a dual plane intake and a nicely running QJ unless it is screwed up. But then it is "your" gas.
    280 hp at the rear wheels is some nice hp for a 350.
    Big flowing heads and small cam is better than big cam and small heads and much more streetable. The heads will make the cam seem bigger to the engine and you'll get more rpm out of it.
    I'm no expert but I do have more than a few years experience so I'd really like to hear from some real engine builders what they think. A picture of what the plenum looks like would be nice too.
    Well there you go. Before anybody gets excited reread the second paragraph.
     
  2. 70sLark

    70sLark Well-Known Member

  3. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    I tried to the best of my ability only changing one variable at a time, but sometimes it's just not possible. For example 14.25 run in the winter with stock manifold, and drivetrain versus a 14.1 with the x-factor and 200r4 drivetrain in the summer. Big temperature difference, unavoidable.

    However, when I dynoed this car last summer it made a consistent 20 more HP with the custom vs. stock intake, on stock heads. I think it made more torque too! TA's intake wouldn't have made jack sh^& more power. I think this got everybody excited wondering what the potential of this intake was. For the record, the dyno runs I made last Saturday were on a different dyno. The old dyno shop was sold and I had to use the guy's portable dyno. Once again, unavoidable.
     
  4. Turbo455

    Turbo455 James

    Good points Mike.
    I have seen smaller cams outperform larger cams many times at the track. I don't see many dyno runs. But I am at the track every weekend that it is open, bracket racing in the sportsman class. This class is basically full of cars just like yours and mine(tuned street cars). I don't know how many times I have seen my friends change out a zero overlap cam for a 15-20 overlap cam @.050 to "kick that 455's a$$". And guess what, every time they loose 2-5 tenths. I have seen this time and time again. The only time I have seen a bigger cam work was when they decided to build the motor to handle higher RPM's. In my personal opinion I think that the 212 is a perfect cam for what you are trying accomplish. But I am also a big advocate for zero overlap cams which the 212 is. That is if you are not willing to wind the motor up and have like a 4000 stall. I hate to keep beating the turbo drum, but bang, bang bag. I understand the 3000 is hard to swallow. but it is really the solution to gas mileage when you need it and massive power when you need it. The turbo will also make the motor see a bigger cam. My first 455 that i Turbo'd would not turn past 5400 rpm's without falling on it's face. After the turbo, it would hit 6000 rpm's in a flash. Trust me Cason, if you save your money for the turbo you will be very happy. Have you taken a ride in Marks car? If not you should.
     
  5. vande

    vande Well-Known Member

    I have to applaud Cason for his efforts with his smallblock. He has taken some standard ideas such as gears and head mods combined with slicks to run quicker. He has also been willing to try one off parts like the X-factor. Just because the intake doesn't have huge money in R & D doesn't mean it is junk. A lot of cars my buddies and have built over the years have been compromised, combination wise, due to funds, parts availability and other things. This is obviously a work in progress, that may take steps forward and backward along the way. Also you can tune a Holley to get similar mileage to any other carb, even a QJ, with a little time, effort, and knowledge. So keep up the good work Cason. :TU:


    :rant:
     
  6. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    We will just have to see how it performs at the track. I am taking the car in for tranny work tomorrow, there goes money that could go to turbos:rant:.
     
  7. Turbo455

    Turbo455 James

    Cason have you been for a ride in marks car?
     
  8. vande

    vande Well-Known Member

    If you are having tranny problems now, soon after the swap, it may have been holding you back some at the track as well. :af: You might pick up some ET if it gets straightened out. You should also be able to compare the #'s to the last cool weather runs you listed with the stock intake. :TU:
    It might also lead you toward the next step you take.
     
  9. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    I haven't been for a ride in Mark's car, unfortunately:idea2:. The trans was fine last time at the track, but I hoping the problem is simple. However, summit is going to deliver me a rebuild kit tomorrow morning, so I am expecting the worst.
     
  10. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Bottom line is that the X factor is the only performance 350 intake available.
     
  11. Justa350

    Justa350 I'm BACK!

    Thanks guys. Mike, the X-Factor was an all out race design. Yes the runner taper is aggressive, the plenum is big. I wanted to go for max flow, to see just how much intake a 350 can be topped off with before low end suffers. Funny thing is, it didn't. By 3000rpm (not 6500) the X-Factor outperformed a ported TA dual plane in both torque and hp. Street testimonies also report that it doesn't lose torque for lugging around town. Cason would not rave about an intake's street power if it sucked, especially considering his driver needs.

    The way the 350 is designed from the factory, it is all about torque and velocity. Because of that, it is almost impossible to overshoot on the carbs and intakes. Look at Sonny Seal running dual quad tunnel rams with 1500cfm on an NA 350. GSJohnny also runs big tunnel rams and carbs. Granted these guys aren't worried about low rpm though.

    Call it luck, but the X-Factor runs good on the street. It just allows for big rpm breathing if wanted at the track.
     
  12. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    Yeah, the torque is great, smokes the tires on command. I also believe the engine idles and runs better driving around town with this intake.

    I got the car to a trans shop this morning, and they seemed like the best shop so far that I've been too. Didn't hear the typical "It needs a rebuild" BS.

    Goal is Saturday for the Track!
     
  13. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    Mark,

    I have looked at the dyno sheets over at the BPG site. I compared the last two. If you compare the first and last you are forgetting to mention that your intake needed a 2 spacer to keep up with the TA intake at lower rpm. Without it yours was down 154 HP/239 ft.lb(!) at 3300 rpm finally catching up around 5000 rpm. Maybe there was something else going on there I dont know. At 5800 yours was ahead 23 hp. The TA peaked at 5900 with 467 and yours at 6000 with 526. I wonder how the TA wouldve done with a 2 spacer? Now that was with a huge cam. I dont know what its specs were because they werent listed but Im sure it was way bigger than Carsons 212. Your intake did prove that it was worth power at higher rpm no doubt but all in all the big loss at the bottom end wouldnt be made up for in a typical car without more cam, 4500 stall converter, more gear, and hopefully less weight.(That would be what we would call in the old days a typical small block Chevy stripped out Camaro street car.)
    If we ignore Carsons seat of pants dyno and look at the strip results it is quite clear he lost something. He now has more rear gear, more converter(?), more 1st gear,(I would hope his tires spin more) more carb, more compression, and more head flow and hes only going about the same!??? Welcome to the wonderful world of high performance.
    Actually the intake you made for the turbo engine looks like a better intake for most uses, longer runners with no funnel effect. Please note that a while back TA improved their SP1 by lengthening the runners inside the plenum and raising the floor.
    GSJohnny and I have been giving each other the business for 28 years and Ive been talking to Sonny Seal at the races for almost as much. It is a shame Sonnys car is gone now. He was a real ground breaker with it. Both of these guys cars wouldve been good places to try out your intake especially 7000 RPM Johnny.
    It is interesting that youd bring up those cars because Sonny was running a small block Chevy tunnel ram using adapters to bolt it onto his engine. (HOT ROD did a big 383 Chrysler intake manifold comparison back in Dec 07 and Jan 08 that had some pretty interesting results especially with the tunnel ram. The article should be available on the internet.) Johns been looking at the same thing for awhile I believe. Apparently the runners line up pretty close just as the 383 Chrysler intake lines up close to the BBB. I believe that is the key here.
    Why not take advantage of the MILLIONS of dollars of research that has gone into small block Chevy intake manifolds over the years? They have one that fits every RPM range and use that you can imagine.
    Mark, with your machine and welding skills Im sure you could come up with an intake adapter that would sit on the engine where the intake would normally be, sort of like the intake pan gasket but covering the whole valley and sealing it up all in one piece to make it easy to install, so that any SBC intake could bolt to it. You wouldnt even need the water x-over because it is built into the intake. If you did that, and Im sure it could be done for way less than the price of your intake, youd have access to at least 100 different models and they would mostly be under $200. How about an Edelbrock Performer RPM, or even an Air Gap or for some extra rpm a Victor Jr for your SBB? You could go with any brand name you want for that matter. Why try to reinvent the wheel? Just something to think about.
    Back to Carsons car. According to the dyno sheets Id be looking around to find a 2 carb spacer and give that a try if it fits under the hood. Even a 1 might help
    I ran a 200R4 behind a 350 and it just never held up to lots of racing. It would always end up slipping for one reason or another and this was after being rebuilt twice by guys that knew what they were doing. From what Ive learned you really need to start with a GN unit or at least go to one of the big boys that work with GN trannys all the time and get all the good stuff inside, like the big servos, to get them to hold up. One thing for sure if it is giving you problems youre not going to get any consistency for testing purposes. Maybe on the dyno where you only keep it in one gear under full throttle it might work.
     
  14. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    The 200r4 was great when I first got it. The reason I am having trouble with it is because of a torque converter failure I had earlier this year. So people need to stop questioning it's original durability.:rant:
     
  15. Justa350

    Justa350 I'm BACK!

    There were problems not related to the intake that those dyno sheets don't explain. The X-factor was worth around 60hp, but at 7400rpm, again, not on the sheets.

    I agree, the intake is a race piece. All I'm trying to say is that it doesn't give up the bottom end like would be expected on a SBC. I'd love to see one on Sonny or Johhny's rigs! I have considered making adapters as I have no intention of selling a lot of intakes.

    That said, for those that want to make more power, I'll build intakes. It is definitely not worth the cost for everybody, but that was never the point. The adapters would be great, but I don't know if anybody is interested.

    Anyone wanna run SBC intakes on your Buick 350? I'm not opposed to a new project!
     
  16. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    I got an old SBC manifold you can have. I don't have any money for shipping though.
     
  17. Justa350

    Justa350 I'm BACK!

    Thanks Cason. I can come up with a Chebby intake, I just don't know if anybody would be interested in adapters.
     
  18. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    Has anyone ever sat a SBC intake on a SBB? Is anything remotely close to lining up? Like bolt holes, water passages, ect...
     
  19. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut



    If you look at the rest of the dyuno sheets you can see that the low rpm of the x factor is very close to the ta. That specific pull where the x factor showed low at the bottom was not typical of the rest of the pulls. I spent over $600 in this dyno testing plus shipping of the intake and although the results do not come through crystal clear on paper, the X-factor performs better than the other alternatives. If you talk to Jim B, he will tell you that it was a good performing intake. Had we been able to make some 6500+ rpm pulls we would know the truth, and have proof.

    Once my engine is back together with Sonny Seals heads we will see what happens, stock intake vs alum X factor NA at 9:1 then hit it with 7psi formthe turbos to start and move up from there.

    There is really not very much money to be made by Mark with these intakes considering the time and materials, I wanted one built and he built it.. Tha is how this started, but his new alum version is a showstopper! If a person really wants a great intake then this is the best bet, he can add direct port nitrous bungs and or multiport FI bungs for a little extra. if you want low price, port a stocker. The X factor looks way better than a SBC intake with adapter plates...
     
  20. vande

    vande Well-Known Member

    I think that an intake adapter might be a hard sell, since it would need to be a lot less than the price of an intake to still be viable. That being said I think it might be something to consider to allow far more choices in intakes. Ican't say I would buy an adapter any time soon, but I don't like the manifold choices currently available, stock, TA, Poston, and yours( way too expensive for me). I am impressed with what you have made available so far though. :TU:
     

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