TH200-4R Converter Lock-Up Aggravation

Discussion in 'The "Juice Box"' started by Dan Gerber, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    So you can safely input a tach signal off the coil or trigger module into an Arduino easily? Integration is my downfall. I know old cars and I know software but hardware to connect the two is my Achilles heal.
     
  2. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    i think you call something like wat your lookin for is a transducer. Converts analog input to digital input
     
  3. black70buick

    black70buick Well-Known Member

    I could draw out a long explanation on either the AtoD converter or the analog method (both inherent capabilities in the Arduino) but the answer is yes. The solution can be elegant. Adding a transducer isn't necessarily required if sampled signals are from components you have already installed on your car. Other than the Arduino kit which you priced @ $50 you could likely build what you want since that kit has at least one relay and other piece components.
     
  4. Ken Warner

    Ken Warner Stand-up Philosopher

    At the risk of being a "Negative Nellie" I think what is now being discussed is way more complex than it will be worth.. To do what you want you will probably need to monitor vehicle speed, RPM and vacuum THEN figure out how to make a decision based on those parameters to turn on/off a converter lockup signal. If your TH2004R will only lockup in 4th the easy thing to do is leave it in D around town them bump to OD on the highway and accept that it will do a decent job on its own most of the time. If your trans will lockup in 3rd or 4th then I think you would be better served to get a valve body that eliminates 3rd gear lockup and follow the previous advice. I don't believe you can actually get the level of control you want from a trans that was not designed for electronically controlled shifts though. Lockup in 3rd was really only to milk an extra MPG out of the poor engines of the 80s anyway. Additionally with the torque available from a 350 or 455 Buick I doubt all the naunces in between gears are worth a lot and the MPG difference will be nil.

    For me the 2004R was a HUGE improvement in regular drivability VS the 400. The 400 under light throttle would hit 3rd gear by the time you crossed an intersection. The TV shifted 2004R actually holds the gears a bit and keeps the car sounding and feeling much better. With the 3.42 gear I had the B&M controller setup to lockup at speeds above 75(ish) MPH. At that speed I was doing about 2400 rpm. The trans was well into 4th and the lockup was smooth as butter and you could just barely feel the extra couple hundred RPM as the lockup engaged and the tach dropped back to about 2200-2100RPM.

    I thought I was being a bit of a control freak with wanting to put a delay on the lockup after brake engagement (you really feel the lockup re-engage under deceleration) so that I had time to get back into the gas and cruising by the time it locked up again.
     
  5. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    To be clear, I'm not looking for THE best gas mileage. I'm looking for the best average non-WOT driving.

    My car will only lock in 4th gear now. I have my vac switch running on ported vac so it will unlock when I coast. My transmission guy mounted the switch down next to the case switch. It isn't fun to adjust the vac switch. I'm considering installing a very small orifice in the vac line to the switch to see if that will give me a bit of a delay.

    I never remember I want to install the delay switch until after I've drove it and it is too hot to get between the trans and the headers. :D

    I was looking at the Arduino and see that they have temp sensors, servos and stepper motors. Hmm, with aluminum heads, I have no carb heat, hence no choke. I could check the temp and run the choke with the servo motor until it warms up!

    HAHA, I'm trying to create my own Megasquirt it appears.
     
  6. Dan Gerber

    Dan Gerber Founders Club Member

    Thanks for the responses, everyone. It sounds as though a couple of different kits have become available since I installed the Painless kit in stock GN-spec TH200-4R in my Skylark about 10 years ago. It also sounds like at least one of them (the B&M?) would have been a better choice for me.

    The Painless Performance Products kit includes a new 4th gear pressure switch and a new converter clutch solenoid and a wire harness to install in the interior of the trans. It also included a vacuum switch and a brake light/cruise control switch, both of which are wired in series from a fused 12V power source to the two new components in the trans. I believe TCI also offers the same kit. I think a couple of you have that same set up.

    It looks as though no one has tried installing the vacuum delay valve (sometimes referred to as a spark delay valve) , as shown in the attached photo, in the vacuum line that runs from the ported vacuum source to the kit vacuum switch. Is that true? Or did I just miss it?

    That vacuum delay valve is designed to delay the vacuum signal for X amount of seconds (minutes?) so the trans doesn't "hunt" between lock and unlock when the car is going up an incline, etc. It should also prevent the lock-up occurring almost immediately after the 3-4 shift or after the brakes are applied and released.

    There's a number of similar appearing delay valves that are available, described as spark delay valves. They are/were used in the emission control system of numerous 70's and 80's cars. At first I thought it would be easy to find something other than the part numbers that were recommended by Painless Performance Products until I checked the specifications of some of them and found the delay times are all different. Some had delay time of less than a minute and some provided a few minutes of delay. Many of them are color coded to designate the delay time. Unfortunately, I haven't found any information regarding the delay time of the recommended (blue-colored) valves.

    The tendency for the converter to lock-up almost immediately after the 3-4 shift on side streets (at about 14-1500 RPM with my 3.42:1 rear-end) wasn't too much of a problem when the transmission and engine were stock. The engine and trans were forgiving enough to deal with it, although it was still necessary to manually sift it down from OD to Dr in some cases. It became a little more of an problem when I had the heads and manifolds ported and installed the TA-212 cam in my small-block. The engine didn't like to lug down that low sometimes. The immediate lock-up became really became an real aggravation when I had Art Carr/Calif Performance Transmission upgrade the trans in preparation for the 500 HP 455 I'm building for it. Now with higher line pressure, harder shifts, tighter clutches, etc., there's no slack when that converter locks up.

    It would be nice if I could automatically delay the lock-up for a couple of minutes after I use the brakes and/or after it shifts into OD around town. After all this reading and typing it becoming apparent that this retrofit will always be a compromise, especially compared to the computer controlled transmissions in late model vehicles. Regardless of the length of delay, there will be times, especially in dense traffic around town, that the converter will lock-up too soon.





    Vac Delay Valve.jpg
     
  7. black70buick

    black70buick Well-Known Member

    At the risk of over simplifying complexity of "computers vs switches", having better control over a transmission is not more complicated, difficult, or impractical than what others do to their car for more power. For example, people perceive changing a cam for more power completely impractical and complicated as opposed to heads and intake. To me it is easy even if I have to degree a cam. Some people would rather add a switch to lock up a converter after wiring the brake pedal etc. Seriously, the intellect required to degree a cam is not more than what is required to implement a logic controller or wire switches. I would equate this to someone adding a low boost supercharger to add power then tuning appropriately. None of this is complicated, if you have the experience or talent then that makes it all the more easy. Some people would argue one way over the other based on "correctness." Either-way, it is all done in fun and enjoyment. :TU:

    For the electronics and computerphobes (I say this in good fun) here's a snippet of a code template:

    void setup() {
    // put your setup code here, to run once:


    }


    void loop() {
    // put your main code here, to run repeatedly:


    }

    :eek2:

    But, I do like the ol' fashion engineering involved in controlling something without silicon. It is amazing and complicated at times as well - like dealing with a hysteresis of an analog response. :beer

    Dan I hope you find something that works out to keep you driving. :bglasses:
     
  8. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    There are a bunch of them on Amazon. I'll have to research to see if any of them are appropriate.

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...s=automotive&field-keywords=spark+delay+valve
     
  9. Dan Gerber

    Dan Gerber Founders Club Member

    Thank you, Greg, but Amazon is where the incredibly expensive ($9,999.99) example of the recommended Standard Motor Products #DSV35 spark delay valve was listed when I made my first search a couple weeks ago. I noticed yesterday that the incredibly expensive valve dropped off leaving only the pretty expensive $75 valve listed as available. Maybe a couple of the other similar size and configuration valves would work, but I don't know where to find out how much delay each one of them provides. If I could do that, I think I'd be home free... even if I found out that only the $75 valve would work.

    I also tried Summit, Jeg's and even Craigslist, but they didn't have anything. Like Amazon, ebay lists a whole bunch of them... But without delay specifications. Somewhere, during my first search, I came across a site with delay specifications for a bunch of spark delay valves. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find that site since then.
     
  10. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    You can find an endless supply of them at your local wrecking yard, just cost you a door fee usually 2 dollars. They fit in your pocket , or just toss it in your tool bag, anyware from 2 to 5 dollars should you have a guilty conscious and decide to pay for it. But its the same as nice interior screws to me, would you pay for a pocket full of screws from the wrecking yard?
     
  11. BRUCE ROE

    BRUCE ROE Well-Known Member

    A long time ago (when my very old cars were new), I spent lots of time and money at the yard. Everybody
    seemed to just drop bolts on the ground, and the yard didn't seem to care about them either. Them and
    the stainless steel hose clamps. I started throwing any nice ones in my tool box each trip. Now I have 120
    sorted bins of about any bolt I need, and 6 coffee cans of clamps. Saves a great deal of time. Bruce Roe
     
  12. Dan Gerber

    Dan Gerber Founders Club Member

    Good point, Anson. I could just pick up a variety of colors (since they're color coded based on their delay time) assuming I could find any more early-80's cars and Jeeps in the only one pick-your-part type yard in my general area. Beats paying full price for parts I may only end up experimenting with. Thanks.
     
  13. knucklebusted

    knucklebusted Well-Known Member

    Of course let us know if you find one that works.
     

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