TA 350 Headers on or off?

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by tubecatgs, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. lostGS

    lostGS Well-Known Member

    With the Hookers I put in my wagon. I installed both sides from the top. Wasn't easy but it worked. I am using the ARP 3/8" head bolts, I was able to get my hand under the tubes and get the lower center bolt in. Then tightened with box wrench.

    Tim
     
  2. blyons79

    blyons79 Well-Known Member

    FWIW I replaced my 1 5/8 primary tube headers (so I assume they were T/A) with Doug's 1 3/4 primary headers. They fit MUCH better. Better clearance from the frame and flange and collector mounts are much thicker. Really well made.
     
  3. tubecatgs

    tubecatgs Finally a 4 speed......

    ok, tried to install the engine with the starter, Muncie M20 and headers on.... even with the tilt engine contraption it wouldn't go. If I removed the front bumper and hood release bracket support it might go but the biggest issue we had was not being able to get the engine hoist close/deep enough to get the engine far back enough when the tilt thing was tilted... the AC box was also causing us heartache as well as the starter at the angle we needed. We ended up removing the headers, laying them in the engine bay and installing them when the engine was a few inches away from the frame. Wish I would have listened as between the time spent messing with it, removing and re-installing them we could have saved an hour or so.

    upload_2017-10-3_21-19-59.png
     
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  4. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Thank you for trying, AND taking the time to post the results of your effort:D
     
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  5. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

  6. tubecatgs

    tubecatgs Finally a 4 speed......

    Thanks. I used ARP 12 point bolts and a huskee 3/8 ratcheting wrench and it wasnt bad at all. Granted the alternator, steering and power steering weren't installed yet but I got about over an 1/8 of a turn ratcheting on those lower center bolts. To do it all after the motor was installed would have been a challenge for sure.
     
  7. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    I've heard that before, but have never seen any compelling evidence to support it.
     
  8. bignastyGS

    bignastyGS Maggot pilot

    Done this several times before.It's not like you need to support the whole car or anything.Just need to lift the motor up enough for clearance.I have never had an issue with it hurting anything either
     
  9. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    I'm sure you know how a balancer is assembled. as heavy as the engine is, you don't think that rubber is getting distorted? one day the whole outer ring is going to crack or just slide off..
     
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  10. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    A lot of guys say its ok to raise the engine by the balancer, I don't like doing it that way, my reasoning is theres no firm connection between the balancer ring and the hub, and the outter ring does squirm if you raise it by that because your not raising it straight up, its actually pivoting, like a lever.
    Plus your raising 400 plus pounds on the very end of the crankshaft, you don't think that shaft is bending?
     
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  11. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    not to mention all the weight is on the bearing shells. where an extra .001 is the difference between good oil pressure and bad oil pressure. it's a harmless practice though, right?
     
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  12. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    I concur with the above--why take the chance?
     
  13. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    You wouldn't see evidence of trouble on a cast crankshaft until after a failure, whenever that would be.
    I would doubt anyone attempting to save time and trouble by jacking up an engine by the crankshaft snout has ever in the history of mankind decided after the fact to remove the engine and completely inspect things, including wet mag inspecting a crank, indicating for true-ness or attempting to find some distortion or witness mark to a bearing shell suggesting some kind of deviation has occurred.
    I have seen similarly bent crankshafts destroy the second main bearing on it's way to further failure, as the front main served nicely as a fulcrum point.
    I'm sure a crank grinder that straightens cranks all day might have an opinion to this.
    I would bet that many failures are never traced to a root cause by the time a machine that has an abusive life and service record by nature, even originating from machining...and goes through decades of use.
     
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  14. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    Still speculation at best. No facts to support, but you can speculate on anything I suppose. What if you grabbed it by the front pulleys to swivel it around on the floor? I'm willing to bet the stresses applied at WOT 6K RPM are immensely greater. I've nothing to support that either.. Just speculation.
     
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  15. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    I should have used the sarcasm font, no harshness intended.
    Wasn't trying to argue, but torsional stress would be completely different than bending it across a fulcrum.
    It doesn't take that hard of a tap to move a crankshaft or for it to fall over on the floor to indicate 'off' by .002", which would wipe a bearing and still run for a long while.
    Safe speculation is that it would be highly unlikely that lifting an engine by the crank dampner would be helpful to the engine's life, and that it would only present some level of risk or uncertainty.
    The crank's own design has proven itself to wiggle in it's intended application and return itself with opposing forces which are supposed to be much less than it's fatigue strength.
    Plenty of cranks are simply bent from non-running events.
    Also supporting this supposition is the fact that a huge amount of cranks are returned to true with the tap of a hammer and run for a zillion miles without worry...and it's nearly certain that starting with a bent shaft will lead to early failure.

    Cranks with stock counterweight placement (6 weights, specifically) also prove to deviate off axis further at #2 and #4 mains when nearing their power and rpm limits, which coincides with the manner an engine would be lifted as described.
    In that situation, the 2 and 4 main bearings get wiped out, just before the engine blows up.
    An 8 weighted shaft with C weights in a more suitable shape for it's rpm range and power level than the factory low rpm design goes a long way towards solving this, also supporting the supposition that bending a crank 'that' way is really really bad for it.
    I'll accept this speculation until someone wants to pay for testing or research into it further.
     
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  16. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Rather than clash opinions and presume which have greater weight, try this...
    Secure some test indicators reading in tenths rigidly to the block, needles on the snout, the outer hub ring and with the oil pan off...the crank throw or front two connecting rods.
    Lift the engine itself and attached to the transmission, rear mount attached.
    Rotate the crank in several positions to see if there is a weaker position.
    Make sure and push up until the car lifts, maybe even slip it off to drop.
    Make sure you use your own engine and run it mercilessly afterwards :D :D
    Consider that test the next time it's torn down for inspection.
    I may or may not change my mind about the practice.

    Sorry for the derail.
     
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  17. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    VERY interesting!!
    I'm gonna derail a bit more and say WAAAAY long time ago at the Science Museum in Toronto, they had a pretty thick solid steel bar that you pushed on the end with your finger, "yeah like that's gonna do anything" welllll, yah know what, it did!!
    The meter showed deflection, That inter active display stuck with me all these years:D
     
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  18. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    I don't believe anyone was thinking of lifting the car by the balancer. Just the front of the engine with the motor mounts detached. What idiot would try to jack up the car that way? I wouldn't use the balancer either way. I put the block under the pulleys. The floor jack is barely trying.
     
  19. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Taken out of context.
    I've jacked up an engine and noticed the point in which you stop is when you notice the fenders lift a bit, that's all.
    The pulley being further out would be a better lever against it anyways :D
    All sarcasm aside, I was pointing out that they are quite strong in the spinning direction, not so strong in bending.
    You can nearly triple cylinder pressure for hp and in many cases the rotator will survive with proper combustion.
    Too much rpm and the parts let go.
    The power @ 6000 rpm full throttle NA is going to be less destructive than inertial forces or out of balance.
    That 4 gms imbalance gets to be a few hundred lbs that wipes stuff out prior to scattering your parts.

    When we make these kinds of parts they may require tuning with a hammer at some point.
    Lathe spindles are knocked out of alignment from a not-so-violent tool crash.
    Very large and intentionally rigid CNC spindles, tables and fixturing and their potential deflection has to be considered when creating this stuff. You can lean on things and see them move, as mentioned.
    Leaving a machine in manual jog mode while leaning against something like a milling table, you can feel the servo motors fighting back against your weight and the subsequent vibration on the needle on the more user friendly machines like the Haas.
    Not to say that these are 'rubber mills', just that thousands of lbs of metal gliding on a linear bearing does deflect in certain directions.
    Carving up stuff is pretty easy, the toughest issues to deal with are when things simply move around and having to deal with cutting forces going weird.
     
  20. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Holly..... Maybe just use a thin chunk of wood and lift the front of the oil pan with a jack...
     
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