Stock 72 350 HP, need a little more

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by tubecatgs, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    You just need to change front cam bearing. That's the first place oil pressure goes so that's the one that needs control, a different pressure relief spring or adjustable relief kit . In my opinion the crower (50258) is better with stock heads . Stock rating is 150-170. I would say with right tune you could see something in the 250-300 range .
  2. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    Don't bother with shorter pushrods. There are too many variables with changing the cam, different lifters, milling the heads, among other things. Your lifters probably have too much preload right now so -.050" isn't enough. But, the cam may have a smaller base circle so you might need longer pushrods. The lifter cup could be deeper which requires longer pushrods. Get adjustable pushrods from TA and save some trouble.

    X2 Go with the Crower 3 cam. Slightly smaller than the 212 but you really aren't picking up that much compression with the head mill so the slightly smaller Crower 3 will be torquier (?) then the 212 especially with the headers and not really high compression.

    Don't forget to get a valve spring upgrade for the new cam. Maybe the Stage 1 springs from TA.

    If the pan is off just install the 5/8" pickup and just go with the white 60 psi oil pump relief spring. If the oil pump is off get a thrust plate on there and use a TA oil pump shim kit to correctly set the end clearance. If you don't use the thrust plate and shim kit and set them up correctly don't break open a factory oil pump. No oil passage mods needed for a mild buildup.

    Just buy a standard timing chain set and install it as-is. It will be close to installed correct that way since the Crower is supposed to have 4* advance built-in. That might not be the best situation but it will do. If you know what you are doing and can actually degree a cam in then you can buy a +/- 4* set or even worse a billet set. The billet set must be degreed in.
    alec296 likes this.
  3. Fox's Den

    Fox's Den 22 years of racing the same 355 Buick motor

    You will be happy with the 212 cam or the Crower level 3 you can check out the specs on that at Crower's web site. On the oil mod you make everything bigger from the pickup to the pump timing cover etc. TA can set up a new cover for you.

    It is too bad you are not at least getting the heads cleaned up with at least reseating of the valves and some slight port work. That will make those two cams wake up like you would not believe. You want that 50 extra HP you will find it by having the heads ported some. You don't have to buy new valves just port the heads some.

    Also get the timing set that you can change the cam timing the cam will need to be dialed in.

    Mike (above) is right on the oil mods on my first mild build I did not do any oil mods just that plate on the oil pump and I ran for a very long time. It took flooding the engine with a thermoquad to kill it. that was ten years later. ran the crap out of it.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  4. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD"

    alec296 likes this.
  5. UNDERDOG350

    UNDERDOG350 350 Buick purestock racer

    What mike said with 2 exceptions.
    I would always use the matching components to the cam. That is, use Crower lifters and springs with Crower cam so it all matches. If theres a failure they can't blame each other.
    I also would wait until you can measure what length push rods you need and order that length. I've never seen a 1 piece push rod come loose, but I have seen adjustable's come loose.
    alec296 likes this.
  6. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    I had an adjustable break in my hand, NEVER again:mad:
    alec296 likes this.
  7. Mart

    Mart '71 350 GS, almost stock

    Had the adjustable tip break on one also. They are small dia. threads compared to the pushrod dia. Plus they are hollow to allow oil flow. It's the weakest link on the adjustables. Go roller rockers along with new one piece .080 wall pushrods if you want the best strength & adjustability. Big $$$ though.
  8. Gary Farmer

    Gary Farmer "The Paradigm Shifter"

    On the Crower level 3 and TA 212-350 cams:

    I've done a lot of studying on these and use these as baselines for comparisons with other cams, including the stock cam all the way up to big rollers.

    Mind you, I don't build tons of engines with which to do all this testing; it's all mathematical simulations, which isn't perfect, but gives a decent generalization and basis for comparison between different specs and various engine changes.

    I use the 'on paper' calculations in conjunction with real world testing and testimonies from various other people and compare their results with what I find in the simulator, and am able to draw a few fairly accurate conclusions, particularly on these two cam choices.

    As one might expect, the TA 212-350 cam shows a little higher powerband vs the Crower level 3 when both cams are installed at a similar point (they both have the same dynamic compression when installed the same).

    The 212-350 cam shows about as much torque as a stock cam (but at a higher RPM) with a similar dynamic compression, but with a good 30 hp gain at a higher RPM.

    The Crower level 3 cam shows about 10 ft. lbs. more than the stock or TA cam, but is about 10 hp shy of what the TA cam gives (about 20 hp over stock). This cam also shows about the same powerband as the stock (FM cs647) cam, when installed at 4* advance. Maybe 100 RPM or so higher.

    Now the results could vary a lot, depending on what all was done to the engine, but I tried to give as fair of a comparison as I could when dealing with these combinations.

    Both the TA 212-350 and Crower level 3 cams work well in an otherwise stock environment, including exhaust manifolds, but headers show a worthwhile improvement on the simulator. Some real-world results show that an all iron Buick 350 does very well with either of these cams installed and tuned, however.

    Specs on the TA 212-350 cam (based on a cam card I have, NOT the catalog, which shows different specs from an older version)

    Duration @.006 is 280/285 with 62.5* overlap
    Duration @.050 is 218/230 with 4* overlap
    Lift @1.55 rr .454/.456
    LSA 110
    Installed @4* advance shows 66* IVC point @.006

    Specs on the Crower level 3 Buick 350 cam:

    Duration @.006 is 276/281 with 54.5* overlap
    Duration @.050 is 210/220 with -9* overlap
    Lift @1.55 rr .446/.468
    LSA 112
    Installed @4* advance (built in) shows 66* IVC point @.006

    Static compression ratio of about 9.5:1 will yield around 7.5:1 dynamic compression, give or take, when installed at 4* advance.

    I'm tired and sleepy and did all this straight from memory, so I hope it's not too far off. ;)
    alec296 likes this.
  9. buick64203

    buick64203 Buick Hunter Staff Member

    From the studs on the shift forks, its definitely pre 1970. On the side of the case will be a number stating with a "P", like P0308B. The last digit is the trans type. A for M20, B for M21 and C for M22. They all start with P for whatever reason and on the example posted, the 0308 is for March 8th, 1970.

    Somewhere on the case is the VIN of the car the trans came out of
  10. tubecatgs

    tubecatgs Finally a 4 speed......

    Thanks Jason. I see these numbers P8T28 but no A,B or C. I had it rebuilt and he said it was a 68 M20. I think it came out of a 68 Cutlass. Are any of those numbers the VIN?

    Attached Files:

  11. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    That pretty good from memory Gary. I just want to mention that we have seen both these cams having to be actually advanced 4 degrees. So the built in theory I would suggest not to trust and degree cam as you need.
  12. tubecatgs

    tubecatgs Finally a 4 speed......

    Update. Engine builder has torn it down and said glad I did as he said I was a trip or 2 away from spinning main bearings..... they almost loose and at sometime got hot.

    This is what I just ordered while shop is going over the heads and block:
    Crower level 3 cam, Crower Spring/retainer kit with lifters etc.
    TA Performance 5/8 oil pickup
    TA 10:1 pistons, MOLY Rings .040 over
    TA Cam bearings (front grooved)
    TA Rod bearings .010 under
    TA Main bearings .010
    TA brass freeze plugs
    TA double roller timing set
    TA Valley Pan gasket
    Ford 460 rear main
    Felpro complete gasket set
    have new TA 350 headers
    have new 2.5 dual exhaust with H pipe

    As far as power timing.... I have read some threads.... but I could use some help like I'm a 2nd grader ordering exactly what I need. I think stock 72 2 barrel distributor (but now have TA intake and Holley 650). It has a kit that replaced the points with electronics instead. Anyone know where I should order the stuff and part numbers etc.?

  13. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    Did you get the cast 70 factory type piston? If so you will have about 9.4 with them. I would deck the clock .020 . That would give you about 9.75. I would not advance the cam . A regular point GM distributer advance kit should work. An air/fuel meter would be a good idea since your running the Holley. Hope it's mechanical secondary's. Get the TA adjustable oil pressure regulator or atleast a 60 psi relief spring. You don't need the hi volume longer gear oil pump. Dis you have the oil sump passage drilled?
    Buick#455 likes this.
  14. tubecatgs

    tubecatgs Finally a 4 speed......

    Thanks Andy. Sorry been focusing on trying to find pistons since TA's high compression pistons are backordered until September. If I get the 5/8 oil pickup and 60 psi relief do I need to drill the passage? (My shop wants to know the specifics on what passage if recommended) thanks again
  15. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

  16. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    No need to deck the block .020" to gain .35 compression.
    Put that money into a little bit of pocket porting and enjoy more power with less risk of pump gas problems.
    It's much safer with these tiny cams to err the other way. The potential gain isn't worth losing any safety margin.
  17. tubecatgs

    tubecatgs Finally a 4 speed......

    Andy, How much bigger do you drill the passage if I am going with a 60 psi relief spring? thanks
  18. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    1/2. Inch is good and you can do yourself. But if your having shop do it might as well go 9/16. Then round the 90 turn in block just before pickup screen bolts on with a long die grinding tip. Same with the passage in timing cover can go to 1/2. 60 psi is fine for most setups.
  19. Paul Matthews

    Paul Matthews New Member

    Tommy Carr from Auburn NY is one of the best Engine Builders in the US ! he knows everything about cylinder heads and that's where the Power comes from. Nice Skylark ! I have a 1972 :)

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