Rough clear texture

Discussion in 'Color is everything!' started by gusszgs, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    Hey guys
    Just a question for the pros on base/clear painting
    Yesterday I was down helping a good friend paint his fenders for his ‘68 442
    We used a 2stage system base/clear
    The base non metallic jet black went down quite nicely as it was a very nice warm, but dry day.
    The proper instructions were followed as on the can of paint. We applied approximately 3-4 coats with a drying time of about 15 minutes between each coat.
    All seemed good but the surface texture was quite course. We moved ahead and applied the clear on one fender.That’s when issues arose. Seemed we had to apply a lot of coats (4-5) and it still has a very course texture.
    Would this be due to NOT fine wet sanding the base first?
    I’m far from a painter and this was a 1st time trial for both of us.
    Side note, all the proper water trap filters were in place, so moisture was a non issue I believe. Hopefully the pics will show the texture after clear was applied. It has gloss but very coarse.
    I have read some guys will wet sand the base coat before laying down the clear and others don’t.
    Any opinions on what we did wrong? Any tips or info is really appreciated.
    Thanks
    Jim
     

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  2. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Could have been lots of things, probably most likely the reducer was too fast, air psi to low and or just poor application technique, nothing personal just being honest.

    No real need to wet sand base unless your trying to correct an issue. Doing so will in fact let the clear lay very flat but you have to adjust your gun speed to accommodate the smooth surface.

    Looks like the clear wasn't cut with reducer either. Very few clears spray with a crap without being cut a little.

    Water sand with 800 grit and re clear you'll be fine. Fast reducer is for below 70° and or no humidity, mid temp is for 70 to 80 and high temp for 80+. A slower reducer than what would be suggested can be good and bad for beginners, as you will have more time and so will the product , but if your not careful that extra time it's laying wet is extra time for it to run on you

    Make sure your using a 1.3 or 1.4 fluid tip, air psi at the gauge should be around 20psi depending on the gun, keep the gun pattern parallel to the panel move at a consistent speed, maintain 6to10 in from the panel, there again that varies on the gun,psi,material etc. Let me know what gun and materials your using and I can better guide you
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
    BYoung likes this.
  3. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    Hugger thanks for your reply

    We were using a gravity feed gun (new)
    The particular clear we were using indicated that reducing really wasn’t necessary in the instructions on can so we never bothered to.
    This is the product he bought from the parts house
    I with ask him about the fluid tip as I’m not sure what the gun had.
    He only cleared in fender so I believe unless he’s gone ahead and spayed the other already.
    I’m not there today
     

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  4. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Thats the problem there, it's lacquer,..the absolute worst product one could use. You have to work you tail off on that stuff. And even then durability is terrible.

    As far as the what the can says, they have to say that to cover their tail as the more solvent you put in the more of a "concern" it becomes to the atmosphere.

    My suggestion is to sand that mess off and buy a single stage Urethane and he will amazed at the difference in application, durability and depth

    Nason "Fulthane" is what you want $200 for a gallon and the stuff is awesome.

    I assume he used lacquer primer as well, so he is pretty much screwed as is, but no way in hell I'd put that stuff on anything
     
  5. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    I will forward this sad news to him
    Live n learn I guess but I appreciate your help and input Hugger
     
  6. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    I hate to be so blunt, and I don't mean any disrespect or anything, but if I can offer any assistance dont hesitate to ask me, body and paint is my thing.
     
  7. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    No worries Hugger
    That’s the kinda feedback I was looking for.
    I knew something had gone wrong.
    You have to learn from mistakes for sure. He’s pretty upset, which is to be expected but you gotta get back on the horse right?
    No good in pouting about it. Anything can be fixed. That’s basically what I’m telling him
    I appreciate your input very much


    Jim
     
  8. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    If he's switching to a urethane paint, make sure he has good respiratory protection!

    Looks like that lacquer didn't flow out or it was a real bad spray gun that didn't atomize the droplets into a fine spray, or both. Or he put the coats on too light and peppered the surface with droplets instead of a full layer of paint. Another possibility, if the fender was too hot, the paint droplets would dry too fast.
    The result is he's applying big droplets of paint and they stay in a big droplet as they dry instead of flowing into each other and forming a smooth layer.
    Lacquer was the standard paint a few decades ago. It's easy to work and can produce a great finish with but it just doesn't hold up like a modern paint.
     
  9. cstanley-gs

    cstanley-gs Silver Mist

    I just painted a set of steel wheels
    I was worried if this too as I’ve not painted in years.
    Gravety feed gun from harbor freight With inline filter and water seperartor

    I used base clear
    Metallic silver mist base 1:1 with reducer
    I did not thin the clear. The can said 4:1 with hardner so that’s what I did.

    It was a really fun project I was more than happy with the way it turned out.
    Base coat applied super nice. The clear layed out pretty good too. I did get a run in the clear but you can’t see it easily.

    AEA25CCF-DA2D-4B12-B241-A7156C212EF3.jpeg

    B0087998-B39C-404B-B10F-B152FA754A03.jpeg
     
  10. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    We both sprayed this. So I’m part to blame as well.
    What I can say is we strictly followed the psi requirements at the gun nozzle via regulator and necessary water filters/traps if you will.
    We set up white Bristol board stapled to a skid for fan “test patterns”
    The spraying was done in a car shelter in calm cool conditions with low humidity. As we took turns we focused on nice even strokes and keeping an even distance.
    The black base seemed at the time to lay down quite nicely.
    The issues arose when we were ready to apply the clear.
    We were both of the mindset that when the clear would be applied that it would lay flat and even out the surface “roughness” obviously we were wrong
    The clear went on but layed far from flat.
    Side note we noticed a lot of what I would call “floaters” in the air when spraying the clear....like a bi product of the clear. The clear was used without reducing. Neither was the jet black as it states pre mixed ready to use.
    Feel bad for him, as he’s worked hard at this, but live n learn I guess.
    Oh, and the fenders were cool, not hot at all. Temps at the time were 70-75* low humidity
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  11. CJay

    CJay Supercar owner Staff Member

    What I know about painting you can fit into a thimble. But from what I recall, didnt lacquer need a ton of coats and require a lot of wet sanding and polishing with a wool wheel for it to come up like glass?
     
  12. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Yes lots and lots of work...it's beautiful when done correctly, but the hours and longevity just aren't there to be feasible. Plus going back into it can be a nightmare for the next guy
     
  13. CJay

    CJay Supercar owner Staff Member

    My Riviera was painted in lacquer back in 1986. The paint displays everything that lacquer does- its checked, peeling, one area looks like the skin of an alligator. Lacquer has a lifespan of 10 years. The 71 that was painted in single stage urethane 28 years ago looks like it was painted last year.
     
  14. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Sounds like the paint was too thick, not atomizing into fine droplets or even drying before it made it to the fender!
    You could try reducing it with lacquer thinner. I usually thin it until the paint running off of the stir stick starts as a stream but breaks up into droplets an inch or two from the stick. Hugger, is this a decent ballpark method to get the mixture close?

    I painted my blue '66 with lacquer and lacquer clear when I was a 21 y/o kid. Fist car I ever painted and it turned out fantastic! Still looks great 34 years later but the clear is starting to crack in a few spots. It'll last a long time if you keep it out of the sun when possible, park in the shade if you can, and keep it waxed.
     
  15. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    F387CB69-591E-451F-80DC-1F79A2116319.jpeg 4A979467-C845-4C72-9458-64A0344FC6BF.jpeg AF8B105E-07EF-4F13-8B2A-0CEB8A29B907.jpeg 3D5B5D21-4793-44E5-A9FC-6BFFD00F95B2.jpeg AC25FE2F-8E9E-4448-ADFE-D516E6E88485.jpeg I appreciate everyone’s replies here, thank you!

    Couple of points
    As far as the clear and it’s viscosity goes, it poured from the can to the gun with the consistency of water. Very thin.
    This was what led us to believe the can instructions “reduce if so desired”
    As I stated in a previous post we did apply it full strength.
    After thinking about this now for a couple of days, my gut tells me the base itself was far too rough prior the the application of the clear. What and why that was, is still a mystery. Maybe we should have fine wet sanded between each coat of base.? I don’t have a clue.
    At this point what would be the best plan of attack to get the fenders to look half decent? Or is that even possible?
    Maybe just wet sand the clear a few times with 1000? And respray/repeat?
    He is just wanting to get the car on the road and enjoy it “as is” for this year.
    There has been a ton of work done on this car, from floor work repair to body mount bushings, rad cradle bushes ect...
    Next year he can address the entire car for paint. He’s even considering on a color change. Maybe silver with black stripe.
    Again thanks guys
    Jim
     

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    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  16. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    1000, or 800 and re clear yes, watch your edges.

    And yes much like everything else, directions are a suggestion ha, 9 times out of 10 I don't pay any attention to the "Ratio" heavy metallics, translucent colors, high voc, low voc, etc they all get treated differently. No matter what it says. But it takes many applications of each in different conditions to know what and how much if something it needs or doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  17. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    Ok, thanks Hugger

    When he re-clears after the wet sanding with 800-1000 would you suggest reducing the clear? Or continue on as before?
    If so, reduce by how much and I'll assume with lacquer thinner?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  18. gsjo

    gsjo Platinum Level Contributor

    Follow the reduction ration as given ,I would consider adding a cap or 2 of retarder to the already thinned material.Particularly if its hot/humid.
     
  19. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Hard to say without seeing it, I would suggest getting something else with a decent flat surface, and test on it, the clear should be the consistency of whole milk if I had to compare it to anything. Gun psi, speed and distance are your variables, you can adjust those to change the finish
     
  20. gusszgs

    gusszgs Well-Known Member

    One thing I did forget to mention, and I’m not sure whether this would play a role in the way the paint was atomized.
    Due to where the fenders were being sprayed (car shelter) we had to run quite a long air hose, a 75’ hose off the compressor
    Could this possibly have been an issue. We did have a pressure gauge at the gun and all looked ok in that regard while spraying.
    I read somewhere that you have to account for pressure drop for every ft of hose your using? Not sure
     

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