Rope Seal replacement

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by German57Special, Feb 24, 2009.

  1. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    I am getting ready to replace the Rope Seals on the Rear Main and the Timing Cover.
    Can I replace the upper half without removing the crankshaft completely.
    I looked at it and I don´t really want to loosen all the connecting rods to get it out. Can I just loosen the caps on all the bearings and raise it enought to get the seal in?

    I have read alot about the neoprene seals and we are going to stick with the rope seals.

    Oh, it´s a 364.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  2. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Nothing wrong with the neoprene seals, they just need to be installed properly just like the rope seals. The neoprene seal is actually much easier to install as you don't have to loosen the crankshaft main bearing caps. With a rope seal loosening the mains helps to give some clearance to try & make the installation easier.
     
  3. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    Thanks for the answer.
    I dont really know what we are going to do yet, I have to ask the owner what he thinks. We already have the rope seals and I dont know if he wants to order the neoprene.
     
  4. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Like Tom says, loosen the main caps and gently pry the crank away from the block some, we are talking 1/16th of an inch here.... then remove the old seal from the upper half....with the crank loosened you should be able to take a small flat ended punch and gently tap on one end of the old seal, forcing it out on the opposite side enough that you can grab it with some needle nose pliers and pull it on out.... next blow the seal channell out with compressed air.... then prepare the new upper half of the rope seal like this;
    sew a 2 ft. length of VERY strong fishing line to one end of the rope seal, so you can pull it thru the chanell....
    Lube the rope seal all over with vaselene....
    Then push/pull the thing into the channell, being carefull to keep the oval rope seal correctly oriented...it helps to have a partner to slowly rotate the crank in the direction you are pulling...
    It should go right in...
    once the seal is pulled in far enough,[ you want about 1/16 of an inch left sticking out at the trailing end] then you can snug up the crank to the block...
    next is the hardest part,,, take a single edge razor blade and cut the sewn end off with about 1/16 of the end sticking above the surface of the block...
    the idea here is that the ends left sticking out will pack together with the main cap seal to form a complete seal all the way around the crank...Years ago there used to be a special tool on the mkt that held a razor blade to make this cut... havent seen one in years.
    to prepare the rear main cap, clean the seal channell and the side block channells .... right here I ,personally, take a sharp prick punch and stipple the bottoms of the channells so they wont slip,,,
    then hand form the rope seal into a U shape and force it into the chanell... next is a trick that Ford taught us... take a big socket or piece of pipe and a big hammer and firmly tap the seal down into the channel,,
    next, cut the rope ends off flush with the main cap surface...
    then glue the side blocks into the rear main cap with gorrilla snot...[3m yellow trim cement]
    then coat the side blocks with permatex 300 aviation gasket sealer and the rope seal with vaselene...
    next, slide the rear main into place and snug everything up with the main bolts.... once in place,,, gently tap the rear main cap and the ends of the side seals with a small hammer to make sure they are all the way down... then trim the side blocks and retorque all the main caps.....
    then button everything else up....
     
  5. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    Thanks for the write-up Doc! :TU:

    That sounds just the way I was thinking about doing it.
    I would have probably cut the top one flush too.

    If I have time and the nerves I will take pictures and maybe we can combine them with your write-up and get it sticky somewhere.

    I probably wont get to it til tomorrow though. Hope it works. :pray:

    The owner of the car decided that we should use the ropes. His Wallet helped him decide. :dollar:
     
  6. 322bnh

    322bnh Well-Known Member

    I have never had any good luck with changing the rope seal in the block with the crankshaft installed. But you can tighten the existing seal by installing a couple of strands of stiff wire like heater control wire in the groove between the block and the seal: take a 12" piece and grind a tapered point, start it into the groove and then slide a 6" section of brake line over the wire and with it tight against the block use vise grips shove the wire 1/4" at a time until it comes out the other side, then cut off flush.
    I was alway told not to cut a new rope seal...instead use your hands to bunch it to shorten it, then flatten it so that it fits in the groove of the cap or block. I too use a large socket to form and press into the groove. The cap is trial installed and when removed only the stray fibers caught between the clamping surfaces are cut and removed. Then apply a light of anaerobic sealer to the clamping surface of the cap and install. For the grooves on the sided of the cap, I stuff cotton string coated with #2 Permatex into the grooves by hammering with a suitable tool like a large nail with the tip ground flat.
    Also be sure the crankcase is not being pressurized from excess blowby or obstructed draft tube...even a good seal will leak.
    Willie
     
  7. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    Hi Willie, that sounds like it would work but sooner or later you will have to change it anyways. I think you can only do that method only once.

    I used Docs write up and a little patience and got the rope seal in yesterday.
    For anyone that has a short fuse dont do this. I am pretty relaxed when I am doing something but this almost drove me nuts. I took my time though and it worked.

    I will be back to edit this later and get my pictures up.
     
  8. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    He, He, Yep, it works.... When you do more of them it gets easier, When you are a mechanic , you do a lot of them and dont think a thing about it,,,, just part of the days work....I have seen mechanics fab a special knife for cutting the seal off with a sharp thin blade at about a 45 deg. angle,,,, usually made from a hack saw blade....glad it worked for you... but YOU made it work.... now you have more skill, knowledge, most of all confidence...:Smarty:
     
  9. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    The rear main was easy on my small bock chevy but the rope was just a little bit harder to do.

    I am what you call a doer of all trades and a master of none. If you set your mind to something you can do it is the way I think.

    I was a Tank Turret Repairman while I was in the army. Most of the time it was Hydraulics and electronics that went bad. They never used the dang things so they couldnt break.
    We were stuck with working on our vehicles the whole time. That is where I learned alot. The basics I learned from my Dad and Small Engines in High School a long time ago.

    I gotta git now, I want to get the pics and the write up done so everyone else can do it too.
     
  10. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    OK. Here it is. I am mixing Docs write up with my pictures and what I did.
    --------------------------------------------------
    "Like Tom says, loosen the main caps and gently pry the crank away from the block some, we are talking 1/16th of an inch here.... then remove the old seal from the upper half....with the crank loosened you should be able to take a small flat ended punch and gently tap on one end of the old seal, forcing it out on the opposite side enough that you can grab it with some needle nose pliers and pull it on out.... next blow the seal channell out with compressed air...."

    OK. I did all that but in addition I cleaned all of the parts around it with my high power wet/dry Hitachi vacuum cleaner. Here the picture after I got the block off and the seal removed. Removing the seal was easy, I just grabbed it with a pair of needle nosed pliers and pulled it out.

    <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/Besitzer/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 2.0cm 70.85pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> [​IMG]

    "...then prepare the new upper half of the rope seal like this;
    sew a 2 ft. length of VERY strong fishing line to one end of the rope seal, so you can pull it thru the chanell....
    Lube the rope seal all over with vaselene...."


    OK. I did the same after trying to find some fishing line. I guess I could have used something else but I know a guy that likes to fish and he just happened to have some. I didn´t use vaseline but some other non petroleum based lube.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    "Then push/pull the thing into the channell, being carefull to keep the oval rope seal correctly oriented...it helps to have a partner to slowly rotate the crank in the direction you are pulling...
    It should go right in..."

    This was the part that about drove me nuts but I was in control the whole time. Pulling on the fishing line I helped a little on the other side with a flat screwdriver so the seal wouldn´t get caught on the sharp edges. Only took about a long 30 something minutes. I didn´t have any help either and I think it would have been a little easier if someone was turning the crank at the same time.

    [​IMG]

    "once the seal is pulled in far enough,[ you want about 1/16 of an inch left sticking out at the trailing end] then you can snug up the crank to the block...

    next is the hardest part,,, take a single edge razor blade and cut the sewn end off with about 1/16 of the end sticking above the surface of the block...
    the idea here is that the ends left sticking out will pack together with the main cap seal to form a complete seal all the way around the crank...Years ago there used to be a special tool on the mkt that held a razor blade to make this cut... havent seen one in years"


    I have built alot of models and I still would love to have the time to get back and build a couple more. I bought a nice knife set a long time ago with all kinds of different blades. I found one in the set that I could fit between the block and the flexplate and cut the ropes off.
    That needed a little patience too but I got that done too.

    [​IMG]

    "to prepare the rear main cap, clean the seal channell and the side block channells .... right here I ,personally, take a sharp prick punch and stipple the bottoms of the channells so they wont slip,,,
    then hand form the rope seal into a U shape and force it into the chanell... next is a trick that Ford taught us... take a big socket or piece of pipe and a big hammer and firmly tap the seal down into the channel,,
    next, cut the rope ends off flush with the main cap surface..."


    I did it just like that but I didn´t stipple anything.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    "then glue the side blocks into the rear main cap with gorrilla snot...[3m yellow trim cement]
    then coat the side blocks with permatex 300 aviation gasket sealer and the rope seal with vaselene...
    next, slide the rear main into place and snug everything up with the main bolts.... once in place,,, gently tap the rear main cap and the ends of the side seals with a small hammer to make sure they are all the way down... then trim the side blocks and retorque all the main caps.....
    then button everything else up...."

    Went to the zoo but they wouldn´t let me get close to the gorillas. :Brow:
    I put a little lube on the rope seal (cap side) and put some good orange german sealer on the bottom and the walls of the block. I didn´t get any pictures because the crap dries too quick. sorry.
    I put the cap back on and tightened her down and then retorqued all the other caps. After that I pushed in the 2 rubber seals between the cap and the block and smacked the nails in (Narrow side) and made sure they are flush. Now we can start buttoning up the other stuff.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Thanks again for the write up Doc!

    This kind of reminded me of the springs in my pickup. Everyone told me to put the jack under the A-Arm, loosen the U-Bolts and let the jack back down. The springs will just fall out. I was scared shootless the first time i did one and it happened just like that. When I took the second one out I was totally relaxed.
    Just like right now after 4 German Beers. :beers2: :bla:
    Good luck to anybody that wants to do this.
    And my biggest *Respect* goes to those who want to do it while the engine is still in the car. :TU:

    Sean
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  11. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Sean, You and I are a team,,,,:Brow: :Brow: Very good pics, Yep, that should be made into a sticky,,,,, If we can just get one of the guys to do it :pray: :pray: .... I think that it would help a lot of guys in the long run....Thanks...:beers2:
     
  12. BUICKRAT

    BUICKRAT Got any treats?

    I was taught to soak the rope in oil overnight?

    Also, a chevy rear main seal installation tool (or reasonable facsimile) can ease installation...keeps the rope from getting cut on the sharp edge when pulling it through.

    My experience with rope seals is that they all leak a little, unless the crank is removed. Some will leak more than others. Lets face it...its a piece of rope crammed onto a rotating crank. About as tech as a rotary phone, but nowhere near as reliable. Drip, drip.
     
  13. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    I guess I will see here in a while if she leaks or not. I dont think she will.

    Here is a picture of the tool I used for my SB. Its just a piece of plastic.
    For the rope seal you would need one for all three sides.
    I knew I took all those pictures for some reason. They just love me at the Pickup Forum I am in.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Sean
     
  14. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    We finally got her running. We had a 50/50 chance that she would or wouldnt leak and guess what, she leaks.
    Not too much but its enough to make me mad.
    Now we want to try it again the next time we change the oil but this time try the neoprene.
     
  15. German57Special

    German57Special Rope Seal Terminator

    *Update*

    It has been a while but we got a neoprene seal in there and she doesnt leak anymore.
     

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