Hey Rhett,have you ever tried running your car with the power steering belt off? A power steering pump uses 15-40 HP without even turning. On my 65 Impala with the original 283 with a powerglide it made about a .6 difference in the QM with the belt off.LOL(very under powered with a heavy car) But with the 383 in it,it didn't make any difference to speek of,it won't hurt to try though if you are thinking your old Nail Head is tiring,it might make a difference for her.GL Derek
I love it when I hear about a Buick whippin up on a Mopar! I have a buddy that is Mopar -no car type of guy. I ask him the other day if he had any Mopar engines for sale, he said"Why are you coming to the winners side?" I told him"No, winter is coming and I need some weight for the back of my truck" Stuck his middle finger up at me!!!ou:
Derek - great question. This year, I have tried both removing the PS belt and disconnecting the alternator (Doc likes this one) and compared back and forth I found that no PS belt gives me 1 mph, but no ET gains... Disconnecting the alternator didnt do anything meaningful - ET or MPH wise. It might be that the lack of parasitic HP was offset by the pertronix unit needing better than residual battery voltage. Keep those suggestions coming!
Cool,I wasn't expecting much of a gain with the torque the 401 has,but I thought it might be worth a try. It probably worked so well with the sbc 283 because it is such a under powered engine for such a heavy car.(every little bit helped) Derek
Rhett, From the looks of the chart it looks like the "heavy" air is what is really giving you heck. That high pressure coupled with high humidity. Humidity sucks. One of the things that I have been taught, and I know it isn't always feasible when track time is limited, is don't change more than one thing at a time. Run it down the track a couple times to get it settled in. Then make an adjustment. If the time gets worse, change it back and run it again. If the time goes back to normal, then change something else. Otherwise like you have stated, you don't know what is doing what. You can only speculate. I can't speak from personal experience because I haven't put any track time in. I plan to once at least the trans is rebuilt. I really want to see what she will do. The basic knowledge I have on test and tune comes from listening to all of Uncle Don's stories and reading through his trusty notebook. Back when he was going for the title, he kept a VERY detailed log of every trip to the track. Included weather, track conditions, times, mph, any changes that were made between passes, and if the car did something weird on a pass. It ALL went in the book.
Johnny - good advice, I've got the same knda book and thats exactly what I do. On test and tune days I can make a single change, then a bunch of runs back to back and note the effects.. But on elimination days I have to look at my notes and try the shotgun approach and hope I get it right. If my mph is down, I richen the secondaries, If it's not hooking I back off timing, etc..with the next run potentially being your last, you do what you can. I'm actually enjoying th test/tune days alot more. I agree on the heavy air, and I'm gonna start paying closer attention to it. And I'm really liking the PS belt trick, but what a bear to make the return road turn off! ---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 PM ---------- Sometimes those guys can be a little "tribal" - I've see it bad with Mustang guys too! I guess I'm in no postition to knock brand loyalty. I know that 74 GTX was recently redone, and it's absolutley gorgeous. But it ran in the low 16's, and that really surprised me. For all the work they've got into that car. how hard could it be to get a fresh 440 into the 15's? This wasn't their first trip to the track, and they're running with folks who know how to do it...Maybe the thing was running 2 series gears. The 68 Road Runner actually beat up on me! But it wasnt stock, had a very lumpy cam and I think 3.73 gears (came on a trailer anyway). It ran a best of 14.5 @ 96 when I was there, and probably had 100 mph in it on a good day, But the guy was a great sport, and told me " I'm having the most fun I've had racing my absolute worst. " I'd take the first half of the track, he'd take the last. Lotsa fun, cant wait to run that guy again...
Yeah,driving with the PS belt off is called armstrong power steering.LOL The things we do to drop a fraction of a second.o No: It does count though when its in writing on a time slip.:Brow: It is all in the name of fun though,so if you're having fun,its all good! Derek
You need at least a 3.90 posi in the back....a 4.11 would be better.... :Brow: Then the car would hook better and you would put such a hole shot on the competition that they could not catch you before the finish line....that said,,, aint all those cars in classes that is above your class ????? all that matters is that you beat the cars in your class.... I know that a 440 GTX is....and a 396 chevelle is..... or at least used to be.... :Brow: I am saying that you need to lower the pressure in the rear tires some and a lower gear in the diff...... Question; Are you running 14 inch tires ????? if not you should be.....p another thing ,,, just how slick is the track ??? some tracks are slicker than others....makes a difference....
Hey Doc! Yeah, punching above my weight class with these guys, but it's still fun. As I still drive this thing, I'm gonna stick with the 3.23's, although I would go as high as 3.42's if you could get them for the 65-67 8.2...I have them in my 73 and really like them. Yeah, that Chevelle was an extremely well prepped 396/375 with mucho gear...4.11s? Ran a 12.4 at 109 when that picture was taken, and was one guy that I didnt even come close to 60 footing, but then again he only got a 1.84 to my 2.19. At my best, he'd only jump me by less than .2 tenths, and if I got the light, it's a race all the way to the flagpole... Which is generally what happens - like you say, alot of these guys have some kind of traction problems and I can get away from them, at least to the 60.. and alot of them get impatient and screw up - miss a shift, hit it too hard and spin. Funny thing is if they just kept it cool and feathered it, they'd have me by the 660. I am running 14 inch Coker BFG radial Silvertowns's and like them alot - not alot of footprint, but make for a light wheel/tire combo that turns easy. The track was beautiful that day, despite being 50 degrees or so I was able bring the car up against the converter to 2000 rpm which I have never have been able to do (generally anything over 1600-1700 spins the tires). But even launching at 2k, my 60 fts were still lousy at an average of 2.22. I cant attribute that to headwind....
OK, that was it! Final track day of 2013, track closes tomorrow. It was about 45 degrees all day, but the track prep was so good I couldnt break loose now matter how hard I launched - I was launching at 2300 rpm because it wouldnt stall any higher....got 8 runs in and still drove home. There was a 10 mph S/SW head/crosswind I figured was good for about an 8 hp deficit. Since last week I had re-installed the Tom T distributor which had been giving great 60 fts, double checked my throttle linkage for full seconday opening, tightend the secondary air valve and put a "F" hanger in with CK rods, and left it alone for all 8 runs. Here's what I ran: [TABLE="width: 240"] <COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=5 width=64><TBODY>[TR] [TD="class: xl66, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.92[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.79[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.92[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.51[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.13[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.88[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.68[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.15[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.90[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.78[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.92[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.50[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.15[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.87[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]92.11[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.95[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.05[/TD] [TD="class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent"]Average[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.91[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]91.63[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent"] [/TD] [TD="class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.14[/TD] [/TR] </TBODY>[/TABLE] And not surprisingly, if I do the math I'm STILL putting about 251 HP to the wheels. I dont know why I bother to tune...at least I saw a significant reduction again in 60 fts.
At least you are nice and consistent for the most part. Broke out a couple times but good runs. Nailheads are just finicky like that it seems. Pretty much bullet proof engines but like any other changes make progress others dont. Dons car sets its pace on run 3. Then stays there all day. As long as Don holds up his end of the bargin so does the car. If course we are abiut to start a whole new book once the engine goes back together.
I agree - the car is gonna run what it's gonna run, whether that is 15's or 14's I never know until I get to the track. One thing I do know, whatever it runs, it'll run that number wthin a couple 10ths all day, and generally nothing I do will change it. I really think I've maxed out this combo, and to have that tired engine run like they did when they were brand new is gonna have to be good enough, at least until I can get Tom T to screw a fresh engine together. I guess that'll be the next step. There's a couple things I've been thinking about: Looking back at the numbers over the past couple years, I think the 1/2 open spacer actually slowed me down, and this new tranny runs HOT, I'll need a tranny cooler now. And both Doc and Tom keep talking about gears...I did the math quick and 3.90's bring me across the line (with a 26" tire) at 4900 RPM...It might not hurt to try them for a season, especially if I've got some traction to spare... I was running with a guy with a 69 350hp GTO yesterday - he should have been an even match for me but couldnt hook, and couldnt even get the car into the 15's (and it was healthy!) I think the work I did on the suspension really paid off bigger than most. Tips from Doc, Tom, "Blueprinting Buicks for Action" and the NEGSGN Dave Morgan Seminar all came into play, but think about it... at a well prepped but 40 degree track I couldnt spin tiny stock 225/14 radial tires by TRYING, and if you look at the pictures that front end flies up and transfers..thats putting ALL the HP to the ground. The flagman told me the track hadnt been hooking Friday afternoon, so I ran with a full tank of fuel. Looking back, I probably could have run with a half tank and saved myself about 75 lbs of dead weight.
Rhett, Glad to hear everything is going well and you had another consistent outing. Are you considering a rebuild? i am looking into a cam swap for my turbo setup so will be pulling my cam out that has 130 miles on it. wouldn't mind donating it to the cause if interested. Paul
Paul - Thanks for the offer and I'd be happy to take you up on it. The plan is to retire this motor while it's still in one piece and build a 66 MT code 401 out of a Wildcat I've got in the on a stand in the garage. I'm kinda limited on cam choice as the ultimate goal is the pure stock series and the specs are pretty specific: "Duration at .050" lobe lift must be within 1% of factory specs. Lift at the valve must be within 2% of factory specs. Engines must be able to produce at least 16.0 inches of vacuum at 1200 rpm" I think we determined this car has the "090" cam in it. And if I'm doing the math right, the 091 is a pretty close substitute (at least on the intake side). But thesespecs are measured at .002, not .050 like the rules specify. Does anybody know how that translates? [TABLE="width: 271"] <TBODY>[TR] [TD="class: xl65, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]CAM PART NO. [/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 87, bgcolor: white, align: right"]1368091 [/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 148, bgcolor: white, align: right"]1368090 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl65, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]NO. ON SHANK [/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 87, bgcolor: white, align: right"]1362241 [/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 148, bgcolor: white, align: right"]1362241 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]TIMING ADVANCE OF #1 EXHAUST LOBE AHEAD OF SPROCKET KEYWAY [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]030' [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]5 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]EXHAUST DURATION .002" [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]299 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]295 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]EXHAUST LIFT [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white, align: right"]0.441 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white, align: right"]0.431 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]INTAKE DURATION .002" [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]290 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]295 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]INTAKE LIFT [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white, align: right"]0.439 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white, align: right"]0.431 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]SPACING [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]109 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]114 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]EXHAUST OPEN BBC [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]71 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]76 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]EXHAUST CLOSE ATC [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]48 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]39 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]INTAKE OPEN BTC [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]29 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]28 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]INTAKE CLOSE ABC [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]81 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]87 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl64, width: 126, bgcolor: white"]OVERLAP [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 87, bgcolor: white"]77 [/TD] [TD="class: xl64, width: 148, bgcolor: white"]67 [/TD] [/TR] </TBODY>[/TABLE] Walt, as we look at the rebuild I'd love to hear your cam suggestions - you, me, Joe and Tom can get out heads together and figure out what will do the trick. Hell, maybe Paul's already got it in his hand!
Rhett, one big difference is going to be not using a q-jet on a 65 gs. Unless you think that wouldn't be a problem. Bigger carb and bigger plenum:TU:
I know, no Doc mod either...Hate the idea of it. but if we're talking stock, I mean stock. I never did cure my AFB from leaking out of the throttle shaft after hot shutdown. It's actually a pretty responsive carb, and I did run a bunch of 14.9's on with a a best of 14.85 once...but mostly it was a 15.0 carb.
Rhett, it is a stock cam I purchased from northern autoparts in the master rebuild kit when I did the motor the first time. I do not know the specs but can measure the cam when I pull the motor and cam.. Have some fairly new(1 hr run time .030 pistons too).. cheap cheap $100.. My motor pulled over 20 inches of vacuum at idle so that wouldn't be a problem.. Paul
Paul - thats a generous offer, I'll take you up on it. let me know when you're ready, and I'll come up to meet you,
hmmmmm,,,, the old ''stock'' standard was to either come on the car from the factory with the item or be able to buy it OTC at the dealers parts counter or an after mkt suppplyer like Melling, sealed power , ect.... you need to talk to your cam grinder for the different measurments.... you do have a cam grinder dont you....:Brow::Brow: looks like you could just do some math to figure it out....
