http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=71f_1235102429 Don't seem fair to me !! My grandkids can't pray in school or sing God bless america ! but muslim immigrants can DEMAND a prayer room for their 10 yr old ? Is this still the USA ? :af: Moz
We are blessed. We live in a rural community, predominantly born again Christians. The school our kids attend has about 260 students, but it is a public school. Along with prayer every morning over the PA system, no less! each class then has about a 15 minute devotional led by the respective teachers. Each year a petition comes around our local churches where we have to show the federal and provincial government that we support the prayer times in school. I think at least 100 parents have to sign or something like that. We always are WAY over that quota! How fortunate are we to not have to deal with a story like you posted!
Carl is lucky to still live some place where people can still live the way that they choose. In the U.S. today, you have to respect everybody, go out of the way for everybody, the farther they are from the rest the more you are suppose to do to accomadate them. The only exception to this is if the person that's rights are being abused looks and believes the same as the founders of this country. They call you racist or some form of a hater if you don't agree with anyone who doesn't look like you. Why can't they see that sometimes you don't like some one and it has nothing to do with where they are from and what their culture is. And why is it wrong to embrace the culture that you grew up with and that our country was founded on?
As an atheist, I have a totally different vision when it comes to prayer or course anyway. But I fully agree with what you say. If you critisize Islam you are an racist and xenofobic and what not. That is just wrong. But they use this method to get into societies and other places where this religion doesn't belong (not to step on anyone's toe's, but I think there are a lot of places where religion, any religion, does not belong, and yes that includes public schools if you ask me). And yes, Europe is far more gone when it comes to stuff like this. 'Greased by our own leaders', as Pat Condell said it. Because that's the thing here. A lot of leaders want so desperately be friends with Muslim countries and Muslim people in their own society. Mostly because they are affraid. We don't want to piss anyone off. Wich is fair enough, but what they do is basically forgetting about their own people, their culture and the religion that country is accustomed to for decades (usually Christianity in the western world). Islam gets a little TOO much respect. A bit more respect for ourselves please! By that I mean our western world. Not all of Islam is bad, nor is everything about religion in general bad. You always have a certain retardness and radicalism of some followers. And the urge to impose a universal morallity on everybody. It always tends to enslave everybody. But it nice that some of you can choose if you allow prayers in school or not. That's democracy. And isn't that, along with secularism, everybody's friend :TU: Please let me point out that the Founding Fathers (wich I admire and awfull lot, along with the first amendment right that you guys have in the US) were not all that religious at all. And they understanded the need of a seperation between church and state ('Jeffersons Wall of Seperation') very well.
Moz, what school district? And only the child can ask for this. I've listened to Jay Sekelow a lot. This cannot be directed by anyone else but the student. No member of the faculty can assist in any way. And if they give it to him/her, then they have to make available a room/rooms for all denominations and time to pray during the school day. That's the law. Period.
Europe has what they deserve. Come to America and you can be an AMERICAN!! Emigrate to france, Spain,Germany, the UK,etc. You will never ever be a frenchman, a spaniard,a dane, Or Norweigen etc. God bless the USA:TU:
I think that's one part people get a little wrong a lot of the time. Back in those days and farther back, the church often controled government. No one wanted to see that happen. Seperation of church and state was to prevent control by the church, but they never intended seperation from church. The principals of christian religion were important to them, but keeping the church from having power was what they were after.
In Canada they wanted to remove "God keep out land glorious and free", from the anthem. I tell you it gets alttle tough on someone whom's family was here before we were even a country. There is my families blood has been spilled to defend it. If it was soo good were you came from.....why are you here ????
I think those of us whos family migrate to north America many moons ago did so as they done decided that people on that side of the world are nuts. And we aint talking almonds or walnuts. Them ugly curled up dark ones no body wants to eat
Some latest news from The Netherlands: A major city council decided to have a district information centre in a mosque (70% of that district is muslim) and on request of that mosque there will be 2 separate counters; 1 for men and 1 for women (extra tax spent on this 'surrender' $150.000) A public theatre in Rotterdam decided to make separate seating areas for men and for women in case of a show where muslims will be the majority.
Phil, It was speaking in general ! they aren't in school yet ! It just frosts me that we are making special another minority ! It seems to me that the majority are the new minority !!:laugh: :af: oximoron ! All the MSM are walking on eggshells not to PO the muslims now ! They are affeared !:laugh: What is this country becoming ! :spank: It ain't the one I grew up in !:af: Well I am done ranting for now ! :grin: Gary
But this is America,i dont care to have that religion shoved down my throat,or being subjucted to it,just because they decided to emigrate to this country.You know damn well the parents & lawyers are behind it,trying to get our tax money in a frivoulos lawsuit,i am so sick of these things:moonu: I live in blue collar working class land & some religous group (i wont mention)made a big deal & the school district said the x-mass pagent was cancelled because it would "offend":shock: Guess what,it happend anyways,i attended,& my kids are out of school & have been for years.I have GOT to be the most impolitacally incorrect person i know,but i can handle allmost anything,no problem,but things like this CHAP MY HIDE:af: And i drive a BUICK(to keep it related)ou:
You know... as an agnostic, I really don't care what religion anybody is. To each his own. Just don't bother me trying to force your views onto me. Those people that knock on your door, I try to be nice to them, but still make sure they know Im not interested. With that said, I have a similar situation where I work. Its a large corporation with people from many different backgrounds and/or races. Probably 80k+ employees around the world. But when it comes to religion the Christians are the ones who do without. I don't get Good Friday or Easter Monday off as a holiday. But certain Muslim co-workers get 2 hrs every Friday off for prayer. There is an annual Ramadan dinner (not employer funded) which I attend because its interesting and the food is great. Our Thanksgiving dinner was canceled last year because an office in another part of the world where they do not celebrate Thanksgiving complained that they don't get a thanks giving dinner. We were not allowed to put up a Christmas tree either! It bothers me just a little bit because I am great friends and co-workers with these people and have no ill feelings towards them.. but it just doesn't seem right or fair.
Please let me point out that the Founding Fathers (wich I admire and awfull lot, along with the first amendment right that you guys have in the US) were not all that religious at all. not true. some of the famous ones like Jefferson and Franklin were Deists and against organized religion, but even they believed "a creator". many of the others that the secularists don't like to talk about ( gosh, i wonder why they aren't famous? ) were quite serious about their faith. John Adams, the second President, was a very serious Christian. And they understanded the need of a seperation between church and state ('Jeffersons Wall of Seperation') very well. there is no "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution. never has been, never was intended to be, not in the sense that you mean it. the religion clause of the first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" get that? Congress ( and only Congress ) shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. by anyone. even Congressmen. that's why sessions of Congress are opened with prayer. it's only been since the 40's that the secularists have gone insane on the first half of the clause while completely ignoring the second half. this is what you get when you elevate clowns like Alan Dershowitz to purportedly be one of the "best legal minds" in the country. i note that several of the readers ( notably, the European ones ) have keyed on my "not as bad as Europe" quip. some of what i read to keep up on current events: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html http://www.brusselsjournal.com/blog/7745 http://www.steynonline.com/
What I was actually trying to say is that way back, around the time America was founded it wasn't as religious as it is today. And some of the Founding Fathers weren't very religious ("Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone on man", "Lighthouses are more usefull than churches", quotes like that I quess we all know them). Or at least against organized religion as you pointed out. Even John Adams was skeptical, and saw the bad things about religion (poisoning minds, ridiculous dogma, superstition). He even fought for the rights of atheists back then (they weren't always treated that nice, thanks to religious biggotry). John Adam quotes: ""Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." You could very well be right about the Jefferson and Franklin believing in a creator. Back in those days science wasn't as far as it is today. I hope you keep up with science too! :TU: You probably know a lot more about American history and (modern) American politics than I do. And maybe I got it wrong about the seperation of church and state. But this the only way I have seen it written or heard people say is like that, actually. Of course it wasn't a complete seperation from the church lol (good to point that out 1967GS340, but I didn't mean it like that). But I quess we all know about Jeffersons Wall. http://i44.tinypic.com/10gky38.jpg Luckily this is a car related forum, something that bonds us all together: BUICKS! Although are world views might differ. Talking/discussing religion is always a bit risky. Emotions can come into play, and people tend to get offended quickly (I'm not saying you reacted that way). We are getting off topic anyway. Discussing who said what and who did what. Bottomline is that when people say America was founded on Christianity, I always think 'that's not the whole story'. Hope you understand.
But this the only way I have seen it written or heard people say is like that, actually. because secularists have completely taken over the education establishments and media. all one has to do is look at history or the document itself to disprove them. around the time America was founded it wasn't as religious as it is today. religious fervor in the Colonies has always been cyclical, both before and after the Revolution. you could hardly find people more religious than the Quakers, Puritans, Pilgrims and many others, all of whom were here before independence. whether the founders themselves were more or less pious than Americans today is purely a matter of conjecture. one could suggest that the large scale consumption of pornography in the States would indicate that we are not particularly religious or fervent, as a society. You could very well be right about the Jefferson and Franklin believing in a creator. there is no "could" about it. look up the definition of "Deist". Jefferson and Franklin were very forward about their Deism. Back in those days science wasn't as far as it is today. I hope you keep up with science too! nothing in evolution or big bang theory invalidates the concept of a God or Creator. the fact that it is often presented as such is over-reach by the secularists. it conflicts with strict interpretations of the Bible and many of the main line Christian / Jewish denominations. that's as far as you can go with those theories. John Adam quotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_adams In another letter, Adams reveals his sincere devotion to God, My Adoration of the Author of the Universe is too profound and too sincere. The Love of God and his Creation; delight, Joy, Tryumph, Exaltation in my own existence, tho' but an Atom, a molecule Organique, in the Universe, are my religion. the fact that he was a Unitarian ( not a Puritan as his family had been ) does not mean that he was not religious. and being a Unitarian, by definition, entails doctrinal conflict with the main line interpretations of the Bible. He even fought for the rights of atheists back then he took the second half of the religion clause seriously. this is supposed to surprise me because ... ? But I quess we all know about Jeffersons Wall. major problem; Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing of the Constitution. he was in France at the time of the Conventions. by elevating Jefferson's personal opinion over that of those who actually crafted and extensively debated the issues you disrespect them. as well as all of the representatives in the various states who subsequently voted to ratify the document as it was phrased. it is undoubtedly true that there were authors present at the Convention who held views quite similar to Jefferson. they compromised with others who did not agree with them. checks and balances, dontcha know. they also were quite careful to produce a document which was actually capable of ratification by the populations of the various states. this is why Slavery ( and yes, i understand the rhetorical attack that could be used against me here ) was grandfathered into the new Republic. Bottomline is that when people say America was founded on Christianity, I always think 'that's not the whole story'. Hope you understand. there is a difference between what you've "always heard" and what actually was and is. secularists have no great love of the truth when it does not serve their purposes. see the Soviets or China. Keynsian economists are another great group for a high concentration of secular liars.
I think that some are missing the point. Jefferson and the others views about church didn't matter to them when they wrote the constitution and the bill of rights. Religios persicution and church run governments were common back in the 1700's and before. Freedom to worship, or not, as you choose is what they wanted. People who talk about there being no place for religion in government buildings ect. choose to look at only the facts that they want to see. The ten commandments have been in court rooms or other government buildings since long before these people started to raise trouble. When people were sworn in in court or As President, it was done on a bible. The army has preachers, there is a blessing for so many occasions (official government ones) that you would be hard pressed to account for them. Freedom from religion is the new call of today, and that is only for religion that is traditional in the U.S. I don't go to church or have strong religious feelings, but I do think that when people are trying to take the word "God" out of all things public, they are trying to take away the moral constraints that come with it more than they are trying to take away church influence.
I agree in part, The people who are trying to eliminate any moral restraint won't have to answer for their immoral acts ! That is their main objective ! to through off the chains that bind them ! This is just the start of the oppression to come. Most don't hear much about it because the MSM doesn't want the mainstream public to get wise. IMHO Gary/Moz
