Problems with fresh 455 rebuild, machine shop

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by KenneBelle455, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Thumper (aka greatscat)

    Thumper (aka greatscat) Well-Known Member

    Also ask if they set the thrust bearing properly and what the crank end play is. If the thrust is improperly set one side of the shell will being absorb all the force.
    gary
     
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  2. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Regardless of the answers given by the machine shop and how they address each concern, and whether or not they show the parts failed...there's very few things on the installer's end here that point to his responsibility.
    The way it's being handled negates the right things happening or even the ability to stand up for one's self or to take on the solutions.
    I guess we'll wait and see what turns up.
     
  3. Thumper (aka greatscat)

    Thumper (aka greatscat) Well-Known Member

    one last thing, if its leaking oil at the rear make sure they installed a neoprene rear seal and not the rope type, while we're at it a TA set of back grooved cam bearings should be installed.
     
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  4. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    ALSO, direct the owner of the car to this site and thread, this may help your reputations reading the opinions here?
     
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  5. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Couple thoughts ...rpms need to be 2000-2500 for proper cam break in. Not 1200-1600.
    Also Castrol GTX 10-30 doesn't have enough zinc for cam break in. Maybe cam/lifters ate themselves and metal went thru motor.....
     
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  6. Gallagher

    Gallagher Founders Club Member

    From the first post.
     
  7. TexasJohn55

    TexasJohn55 Well-Known Member

    If the converter was misaligned and tight, it would have damaged the trans pump gears, this needs to be looked at. It may help in diagnosis and to prevent having to pull the trans later.
     
  8. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    I can assure you, there is a lot more going on there than just a wiped out thrust.

    I have seen several motors with 1/4 inch of crank end play, and perfect oil pressure.

    JW
     
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  9. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    Also heavy dual springs can wipe flat tappet lobes real quick sometimes at break-in.
     
  10. KenneBelle455

    KenneBelle455 Well-Known Member

    Ok guys, update time - forgive me again for my long-winded diatribes, it's in my nature to be detail oriented, and I just like to write and explain things out.

    So... I went to the machine shop myself this morning in the hope that they would treat me like a professional and show me what's going on, but no such luck. Right off the bat I went in and politely asked to speak to the owner, and the general manager came up to talk. I introduced myself, said I was here to talk about the Buick and wanted to know what's going on with it. He immediately told me that their company policy is that they will only talk to the person(s) they did the work for, so they can't tell me anything or show me anything. Needless to say I did not accept that, but they would not budge, and both him and the owner maintained that it was company policy and state law, so unless I had the owner of the vehicle come down or call them to authorize it, they would not talk to me. Like it was a hospital and I was asking to see someone's medical chart! Come on!

    So, outside I went to call the customer, explained the deal and asked him to call the shop and authorize a little chat. Initially he said he would, but then several minutes later he called me back and explained that he didn't want me to get involved, he doesn't want any more hassle or trouble, he just wants to let them do their thing and he'll just pay for it and that'll be that. Needless to say, I was very disappointed by that, and tried to persuade him that this absolutely needed to be done, but he maintained that he simply did not want me to get involved. He wanted to let them handle it and that's that.

    I am flabbergasted by this, as I'm very confident in the work that I did, and not at all confident in the work they did.

    I held back a little additional back story from the first post as I did not want to influence anyone's opinion of said shop before having a neutral discussion about the issues. However, I have to say that I was not impressed with their work on this engine from the start.

    Aside from a very poor quality paint job on the motor(which isn't surprising at all, they're a machine shop, not a restoration shop), we ran into our first issue when the engine leaked coolant immediately from one of the water pump bolts as soon as I started to fill it. They installed everything up to the water pump and painted it all together, so having to immediately remove bolts and thus damage the paint was very annoying. But then, things got worse still when we saw the garbage bolts they used for the water pump. The long bolts that run through the timing cover into the block were mismatched lengths and types of bolts, and one of them - the leaker - was very noticeably bent. Bent! They were all badly corroded, the threads were dirty, and it looked like someone gave them a half-ass go on a wire wheel to clean them up. No evidence of any kind of thread sealer or anything either. Not ok. I was not impressed. What makes this particularly frustrating is that the owner of the car now needed to pay me additionally to fix the machine shop's poor work, which of course they said right off the bat that they would not cover that. That's very frustrating for me, as I hate seeing my customers get screwed by the poor work of others, but I have to get paid for my time to fix it just the same, so it just sucks. I always feel bad in those circumstances. But this is why, when I work on something, I take the time and attention to detail to make sure things are right the first time, especially on something like this! A nice classic that the owner is excited about and just spent a bunch of money on, there's no excuse for not getting it right! As the owner of multiple classic vehicles myself, I completely understand and appreciate the love that people have for their cars, and I feel like I'm becoming more and more rare in my desire to put that same level of care into my customer's cars as well. It seems that more and more people just want to get you in and out as fast as possible, sign over that check, goodbye! I hate it!

    So, I drained the coolant, took the water pump off, thoroughly cleaned and prepped the gasket surfaces and reinstalled it with new bolts. It was when I had the water pump off that I discovered the obviously reused old timing cover. I wouldn't mind the reuse of a simple timing cover like on something like a 351 Cleveland as long as it is in good shape as it's just a simple piece of sheetmetal, but a corroded cast aluminum piece where coolant flows through it and it provides the body of the oil pump? Come on now.

    So here we are.. I'm very convinced that the shop screwed something(s) up when they assembled the motor, and they know it, so now they're covering their asses. They won't give me the time of day because they know I'll call them on it. Unfortunately, the owner of the car doesn't have much in-depth knowledge when it comes to the inner workings and fine details of an engine, so even if he had gone down there to check it out, odds are they would have just fed him a line of BS and that would have been that. That's why I went down there myself, hoping to get some professional courtesy from these guys, but to no avail.

    I had not used these guys previous to this myself, despite always being on the hunt for a good machine shop, and they will certainly never get my business now. It's a damn shame, as they were *the* shop in town that everyone knows and their reputation around town is solid. But sadly, this would not be the first time a shop with a good reputation screwed up bad and refused to take responsibility, and it surely won't be the last.

    And at the end of the day.. the owner of the Buick is getting screwed, and odds are I've probably lost him as a customer as well, as I'm sure he'll never really trust me after this. As someone who works hard to build my customer's trust and confidence in my abilities by doing the best quality work I can, this really frustrates the hell out of me, as I am confident I didn't screw it up, yet I'm not being given any chance to redeem myself, and we're both paying the price as a result.

    But on the bright side.. it sure looks like there's a really good group of guys here on this forum. Now that I'm finally a member, I'll be sure to contribute in kind when I feel I can add something positive to the discussion.

    I'm hoping he'll keep me updated as the project progresses, and I'll be sure to keep you guys updated accordingly. I want to see that car back on the road as much as anyone! Thank you all very much for your time and contributions.
     
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  11. KenneBelle455

    KenneBelle455 Well-Known Member

    Ah yes.. Break-in RPM.. I have broken in countless flat tappet GM big and small blocks over the years, and on every one of them prior to this I always ran them from around 2000-2500 RPM during break-in. However, the pamphlet that was provided by the machine shop specifically stated 1200-1600 RPM, and of course that didn't seem right to me, so I asked them about that and they said yep, that's the right RPM range for break-in. I pressed them on it, trying to find out if that's a generic pamphlet they give to everyone, but they maintained that it was correct. I don't like it, but since I want them to stand behind their work in the event of any trouble and not have any excuse to say I did it wrong, I followed their instructions.

    Whether or not that was a good idea for the camshaft is certainly questionable, but I don't see how that would have had any effect on oil pressure.
     
  12. KenneBelle455

    KenneBelle455 Well-Known Member

    I will admit that I am not a hardcore Buick guy(I'm a Pontiac guy, so kind of like dating your sister, eh? :eek: ), so my experience with fine details like this is lacking compared to many here, but I have seen a lot of trouble with neoprene seals on various crankshafts designed for rope seals. I've built several Pontiac V8s in particular, among a few others, and the diagonal hash marks machined into the crank provide a leak path for oil to just seep right under the seal. Is this not an issue on a Buick V8? I've seen this on small block Fords, FEs, among others as well.

    On some crankshafts I've seen it's possible to remove just enough material to remove the hash marks and polish the sealing surface while still retaining enough material for a good seal. Is this ever done on a Buick, or are they designed differently?
     
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  13. Bens99gtp

    Bens99gtp Well-Known Member

    From a business owner, there things you can and can't control. I don't want to see my customers get the shady and I would rather loose some money now to try to keep a customer, but it almost sound's like this a customer you might not want. For them to think your tring to get in the middle, as compared to you trying to prove the shop screwed up and is screwing the customer. If they can't draw that line..........it's time to cut your loss.

    Hope they get it right next time and if not then maybe the customer might listen.

    We have a shortage of good shops that can get stuff through in a normal time. I took my brand new NOS 455 block to the trusted local shop to wash out the cosmoline I couldn't get out from the oil passages. I had most the external stuff off. When I got it back the block was cracking on the China walk up into the head gasket sealing area. I know this not true cause the razor blade I used to scrap the cosmoline off would had snagged the cracks and it didnt. I'm sure the dropped it..........but they never said they did
     

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  14. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    In retrospect, it might have been wise to photo and document the water pump stuff and contact them After all else...or have discontinued the install upon seeing the timing cover.
    If you were seeing major concerns and continued with the install, and already had an unresolved conflict...are you surprised they threw you under the bus?
    (Not that any of this should be condoned...)
     
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  15. Mart

    Mart Gold level member

    When the lobes distroy themselves and then cam bearings melt over the oil holes, pressure drops quick.
     
  16. flynbuick

    flynbuick Guest

    Unless you are N.C. I am not licensed to practice law in your state. But, I will bet you a Diet Coke that they cannot give you a citation to any state law supporting their claim of confidentiality under these facts. I suspect there is no such company policy in writing. When they claimed the failure was due to your mistake, they injured your reputation and made the precise cause your business too.

    If the build failure was due to their mistake, and they are not experienced with Buicks, there is a risk that they will repeat the mistake with the rebuild. This should exonerate you in the eyes of the owner.
     
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  17. StagedCat

    StagedCat Platinum Level Contributor

    "I am confident I didn't screw it up, yet I'm not being given any chance to redeem myself" If all you state is true, there's no reason for redemption, you have nothing to aton to. It sounds like a crappy shop doing crappy work and guess who the scapegoat is! If the customer can't see old used parts or immediate leaks and doesn't want any investigation or use his common sense, well then my friend your toast in his eyes, nothing you can do. Wish the would be customer good luck and cut your loss's, that shop has had more than a Buick go south is my guess.....
     
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    I am a believer in the idea that he who has the money makes the rules. In this case it's your customer and he has decided for whatever reason, to exclude you from further participation in this engine job.
    You have closely reviewed your installation and break in procedures and found no major issues.
    There are differing opinions on break in speed, oil type etc, but those differences won't destroy an engine on startup.
    Your conscience should be clear. You don't want this customer, he isn't reasonable or faithful.
    Walk away.
     
  19. pbr400

    pbr400 68GS400

    Hindsight is 20/20, but I think you should have stopped work and called the shop (or called the customer, let him complain about a new engine that leaks!) as soon as it leaked coolant. If not coolant, oil.
    Your customer is determined to learn things the hard way. Let him. You tried. He’ll learn.
    Patrick
     
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  20. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Often times, a customer with limited knowledge, and working with two shops, will chose the wrong one to help them thru their issues. Been there, done that, and there is likely NOTHING you can do to change their mind.

    All you can do is the best work you can for all your other customers, and these things often times work themselves out.

    I build Buick engines for a living, and I can assure you that the story you tell reeks of incompetence in the machining and assembly. Using a stock timing cover that is in good shape is not that big a deal, but if it's corroded badly, it needs to be replaced. Things like this are often not the decision of the shop, but the customer.

    And as Flynbuick said, if they just try and throw it back together, it's likely they will continue to have issues with this engine.

    JW
     
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