My whole point is I don't think anyone should tool a Buick part without removing the risk. The businesses that are catering to the Buick crowd are not large enough to absorb mistakes. Getting sold orders and some form of payment(escrow or otherwise) is the way to go.
That would be a better approach. I still doubt that enough people would actually come up with the coin to make it worth TA's time to develop heads. It's one of those things that if it were available, most folks would see it as something to save up for someday, not necessarily purchase today.
I was going to make a comment on your behalf last night, Mark, but figured I'd leave it and see if you would chime in yourself. As one observing from the sidelines -- and wishing I had the coin to participate right now -- I've seen that you've taken an initiative in developing some SBB parts, but it seems that the plain and simple truth is that you're just not getting the orders. For as many 350 people as there are in the V8Buick.com community, I would think that most of them would at least recognize your name, and have an idea of what kind of product(s) you produce. That is to say that it's not necessarily a matter of getting the word out. The want is out there (with people like me) for products like heads, single planes, turbo kits, etc., etc., but the ability or will to pull the trigger and purchase is not necessarily there. Especially with an economy like we've inherited now. And, let's be honest -- probably lots of guys who stick with a 350 do it out of necessity because they aren't made of money. And even though that may be a kind of crude generalization, what it means to me is that the money to buy high-dollar parts isn't going to be up front for the majority of 350 owners. In other words, if people buy Buicks with 350s and decide to keep that motor, they will do so on the basis of one of two reasons: (1) it's all they can do right now, or (2) to be different. And that's not to say that people who are #1s will not have some sense of #2 also. Otherwise, you could eliminate this whole problem and build a roller SBC with an alum. top end for lunch money. I guess my $0.02 is to say that companies like T/A and Burton Machine know what they are talking about and doing. If we want the parts, we're either going to have to do it ourselves so that it fits our own timeline, or simply be patient and wait it out.
TA should not stall around any longer on building 350 parts. Maybe it is too late now. This engine has been out of production for 28 years now. How many of these motors are left now. Junk yards have got to know that these motors are not used performance wise and I would guess that they are scrapping them out for the cash. This talk of making 350 heads has been going on for over 5-7 years now. Do the people that want them still want them or have they lost interest in them or does the motors still run at all. Mine was built using all TA performance parts. Built in 1994 and still runs the same times today as when it was first built. I have been down the track over 250 times since then taking the engine to 6000-6200 and I have even hit 6400 sometimes with the nitrous. I have ran the nitrous on it for 2 years now. Car still runs like a champ. Thats durability. TA needs to get on the stick with this and do the best that they can with getting the Alum Heads out to us. I think that they will be ok if they build the parts. Sometimes I wonder if TA has given up on the 350 guys because they used to have Forged Pistons for the 350 and now I see in there cat. that they just don't have them any more. I bought my Forged Pistons from them. Mark Burton...You need to get that car out there and get us some numbers on that set up with the X-Factor Intake. Get a G-Tek, a Apple I-Phone with the dynolicious software on it, Track time, something. You can't just build a part and send it to a dyno and tell some horse numbers on it and expect it to sell. You have to get real world numbers on it and post them. Find a back road or something. There has to be a road somewhere where you can do this. The season is winding down, people want to know if these things work. Maybe TA Performance is seeing that you have not sold too many of these and it has gotten them scared on building the parts. This is why Track time, Dyno time, G-Tek is important. I like the fact that someone somewhere is building 350 parts. But if the part is in the range of 700$ or so I want to know if it works in a real world situation. That is a lot of money to spend. Does the fact that you could pull 6-maybe 700 horse out of a 350 excite anybody? With the X-Factor and some 350 Alum heads and a little nitrous, I know that it will be easy. Probably wont even need the nitrous. I pulled 420 horse and got 460 ft lbs. on a rw dyno with a small 125 shot. You know that is over 500 hp and probably 550 ftlbs on a engine dyno. That is with a 500 lift cam ported STOCK heads, and a few other goodies. I can keep up with modified big blocks with this set up. Lets stop wasting years on getting this done. Do it now! This should actually be a new thread and not on this Poston Intake thread. Yes, I am guilty also.
I understand what you are saying, but the x-factor has had several dyno sessions, on 2 totally different builds, and showed power increases in both. It also is said to feel stronger on the street at all rpm, and not just by me. It is not a question of if it works, or if it builds power. The question is if it is worth the comparitively high price I must charge for its labor intensive construction. It is a unique item, with a steep price tag. I do not expect to sell many custom intakes. I simply wanted one, knew Sean wanted one, and still know that there will always be the folks that want the hottest items available. I also want people to know that for a high end buildup, I can make a fully custom intake for their specific needs. If TA made a reasonably priced cast S/P manifold, it would sell much more often than mine. On the testing of my particular car, it is real easy for everyone to say, "get it to a track", or "do some G-Tech runs" or whatever. There are no tracks within 2 hours of driving here. I will not drive the car that far for testing. I do not have, nor can afford to have the car trailered to the track to show people "numbers". I am not going to go hot rodding on the street to have something to show. Sorry guys, but that's the way it is. As far as proof of turbos, anyone who doesn't believe in their potential needs to read a car magazine, or take a trip to a track. The turbo motors are taking names, and are usually street drivable. I have even posted a video of it being run on the street, including a bit of hot footing. If people are worried about the turbos being prone to wearing out, look at virtually every long haul semi truck. Do people think they would turbo those things if the turbos were going to fry from sustained use? Last but not least, what will numbers from my car do for anyone. It is light weight, and runs giant tires, with a lot more gear than most would want. Hardly an apples to apples comparison for the guy considering twins on his driver. I'm going to continue building kits and intakes when and if they sell, but I'm done trying to create a bunch of interest for something that is already a tried and true performance item. When I have numbers, I'll post them in my Tubs and Twins thread. If someone wants to chat about turbos, just ask general questions, or anything, my number is in my signature and I don't mind the calls.
Yep fox, a naturally aspirated bolt on 500HP kit would be easy to make and the SBB market would explode into profits once word got around.
OK, I'm going to respectfully disagree with that. First off, to make that will not be cheap and how streetable? "Explode into profits"? Not sure I see that, either. Fox wrote, "Does the fact that you could pull 6-maybe 700 horse out of a 350 excite anybody? With the X-Factor and some 350 Alum heads and a little nitrous, I know that it will be easy. Probably wont even need the nitrous." 700 N/A HP will NOT be easy. Doable, maybe, but not easy and not cheap. Those heads will need to flow a ton and it will need to see some pretty serious RPM for that to happen. And, heads that do flow that may not work well at low rpms for the street guys. I work at a shop that builds race engines. We do a fair amount of dyno work. Very few engines make it that high, it is NOT an easy thing to do. I'm not dissing Buicks by any means, but by the time you get there you are using very few Buick parts anyway. Custom pistons, rods, heads, maybe crank, intake, and on and on. I just don't think you'll find enough guys to shell out that kind of money on a 350 Buick.
Well said. 500hp is an obtainable goal but even then, for NA, street manners will suffer. Also, to produce a "bolt on" for those figures!? It would take more than just heads no matter how well TA did the job. Just look at Rob Margel's engine that put up the number. Part throttle would be a bit lackluster without gears and a substantial stall. "Easy to make" is a severely uninformed and naive comment to make publicly. Glad it wasn't me. On the other hand, if a guy takes a freshened up 350, gets Burek, Makley or Gessler to port the heads, a TA 212 cam and 8psi of boost, then over 500hp is achieved, on pump gas, and daily drivable. The other option is to slap a Poston intake and mild cam on your stock 350 and pretend it makes over 400hp. That seems to be the most popular choice.
About 500hp N/A . Well I will say it is not a naive or uninformed comment . I have done it and did not spend a ton on my IRON heads and it is very streetable .
Dollars. How much? How cheap can you make it a "bolt on" for the rest of us. C'mon Mike, you know it ain't that simple.
I didn't say it was simple . I was just saying I did it . Did not get those numbers the first time out . I spent much time trying jetting , timing , head work and other tuning issues .
See, we need to be kissing guys like Mike's asses. There it is, 500 real world HP and it wasn't easy. Bolt on 500hp is pure BS for now. Sorry guys, but unless TA is willing to disclose decades of angle milling, valve shrouding, short turn radius, valve diameter to throat percentage, timing, carb size, jetting etc, in an easy to read "500hp for dummies" book, it AIN'T EASY!!! Now I'm just getting pissed at the guys that expect pro-stock for weekend bracket bucks. Later, I better let the "brew" wear off.
Sorry if that offends you but I have no magic secret . I spent several years trying different combos , not just one or two tests on each combo . Gave each one a real and lengthy test Finally I came up with one that worked and left it alone . The test and tune time labor would be far to cost prohibitive to go into building motors for the public .
No Mike, I think you may have misunderstood me. No offense taken whatsoever. We are on the same page. I think that most look at what you have accomplished and summize it as easy. You should be heralded as a Buick 350 master, while we have guys thinking that 700hp should be no sweat. If the hobby were made up of more guys like you Mike, we would all be for the better!
Mike , glad you understand what I was saying . Tuning for total performance is difficult and very time consuming as you already know . SO many variables to be dealt with and no magic secret , just a lot of hard work .
Accept my apology , Mark . Its been a long and stressful day . Far too many irons in the fire right now .
well if mine gets done by this spring i'll have track times on a street weight lark i still have to order a few things...but i'm mainly was waiting on the girdle and rollercamn/lifters...but from what i understand the girlde may not happen so ...still waiting on those ta rollercam/lifters then i'll buy chevy roller rockers..al ram, efan and, electric pump/regulator, and rebuild kit oh and power boost valve huh? i really need to update the burton site sometime lol...got a new comp but never downloaded dreamweaver..
I will be pleasantly surprised if your 350 is done by spring.:kodak: It can be tough getting so many things together.
