Poston intake

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by captjim, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. TA Perf

    TA Perf Member

    Mike asked me to read these post tonight. You know, when I built the 350 intake I got a loan from my father and a second on my house. I tapped everything I could at the time. So just doing a 350 head wasn't in the news that week. We still sell about 150 intakes a year. The 350 head is still a product I intend to release. But let it be clear, the demand will be small. These are high dollar projects you folks talk about. You say build them and they will sell, but in the mean time who pays for them. Remember on my end the statement reads, due, Net 30 and or prepay this amount. Just the two projects a few of you talk about will set TA Performance back over 100k just to get the tooling built. Then you need to buy casting, build machine tooling, pay to machine, design and inventory all the supporting parts needed, then pay to package it all. This is all in hopes of selling the parts. How long should recovery on an investment take? We started the V6 block in 2002, we need to sell 75 blocks to be even, were at 61. The 455 block will most likely be one of the largest financial mistakes of my business career but you know what, I'm a Buick guy who loves what I do. Sorry that some don't agree, but I'm doing the best that I can with what I have to do it with. So my feelings are, put your money where your mouth is. The Hyd roller cam core was in the budget, let see how it goes. It will help bring your 350 into the 21st century. Remember this cam needed supporting parts also, 350 Hyd lifters are also being built. Just to give you another idea, when Edelbrock released the Pontiac 455 head they sold 600 in the first year. In 20 years I have only sold 700 Buick 455 heads total. With such a low number on 455 heads, wheres the huge incentive to do a 350 head, the numbers just aren't there.
     
  2. Hector

    Hector '79 Buick Limited

    I'm going to bite on this one with my 2 cents for what it's worth.
    With $670.00 for a core roller bumpstick and lifters then adding the grind and the springs,I would be looking at $1000.00+ for the roller set up.If I'm going to shed that kind of money for my cam set up it has to be for performance,I can't justify the expenditure only to avoid break in issues with flat tappets.In other words,if I can't take full advantage of a roller set up,why spend the money on it?All that with stock or modified stock heads to boot,It just doesn't make sense to me,maybe someone who is only racing and has unlimited funds can swing it but not me.However,if some aluminum heads were to come in the future with all the goodies built into them,then IMHO, the roller cam set up would be more palatable to me and I believe to many others also.I've stated on this site before and I'll say it again,I'll buy a set of good heads when they do come available,I believe that good AL heads will put the sbb 350 on the map,again,this is just my opinion.
    Don't get me wrong here,I'm not bashing or asking for time tables for parts that TA has said are in the works for the future,I just don't see a use for a roller cam on the 350 as of now,we need heads and single plane intakes,the way I see it.:beer
     
  3. 70sLark

    70sLark Well-Known Member

    Hector is reading my mind also.

    I typed it and deleted it 3 times in my last posting.

    I feel the roller cam is like making fancy laces for a pair of tennis shoes that don't exist yet. That should come later.

    I know stuff cost but id bet with a bit of time it would be near cheay like when folks have the option. More folks put any parts on cheby 305s n 350s over BBs as its what they got, they can't afford to buy or build a BB but the slowly dump a ton of bolt on loot over time. Were just hitting bottle necks in that way of doing things.

    Maybe were all wrong but were gonna bug ya till it happens so please don't take it to personal ;)
     
  4. DaWildcat

    DaWildcat Platinum Level Contributor

    Somebody needs to take (and pass) an entry level business class.

    But hey, I admit that I've been guilty of spouting off without knowing what I was talking about from time to time as well.

    TA knows what they're doing, or they wouldn't have survived this long.

    Devon
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2008
  5. 71customConv

    71customConv Platinum Level Contributor

    Mike,

    I think you proved our point. If you sell 150 of the 350 intakes a year and Poston sells 100 that is 250 people every year spending money. If there are 1500+ aluminum intakes out there I would bet you could have easily sold 75 sets of aluminum heads over that past few years.

    What is the min number of sold orders you need to make Stage 2 style heads for the 350?

    What is the lead time? Concept, Prototype, DV testing(design validation), Tooling, PV testing(production validation)

    Does TA have a way to track interest in new products?

    Do you have a way to determine sold orders before you start a program?

    Do you have a way to make sure you get paid for orders on a new program, but the customer doesn't get charged if you are unable to deliver?
     
  6. TA Perf

    TA Perf Member

    The projected cam core cost is $265.00 + grind and the lifters are $315.00. These cams are intended for street/strip use. The use of a roller will provide dependability and performance as it has for the big three. It will also take advantage of you current combinations. Again, we are doing what we can.

    By the way, I'm done with this thread.
     
  7. 65specialconver

    65specialconver kennedy-bell MIA

    Wow,some of you just dont understand Mike's point of view.If he tryed to manufacture all the 350 parts at one time,the company would go broke.He had in his budget the ability to produce the roller & he did it.A new part that didnt exist is now on the market,period!It's only been the last couple of years that ive seen any real interest in you guys building the 350 to bbb performance standards,give T/A some time,these things dont happen overnight.If they dont make the parts,who will?NOBODY:puzzled: Keep browbeating him & you just might see them go the way Kenne-Bell did,drop buicks alltogether & make mustang parts.

    And what the hell kind of threat is this?
    I have vowed to not by a damn thing from either TA or Poston until they start making new parts for the 350 again.
    You guys need to calm down a bit:spank:
     
  8. David G

    David G de-modded....

    x2

    I think Mike has been in the Buick perf parts business long enough to know what he's doing, and how TA can best get it done.
     
  9. 71customConv

    71customConv Platinum Level Contributor

    If then don't make new parts for the 350 what would I buy from them? It doesn't mean you hope they aren't successful. It just means that they will not be producing products that I am looking to purchase. I must than go else where.

    I wouldn't expect TA, Poston or anyone to spend a dime of their own money on a project that they would not expect to make money on. That is their lively hood. They are not a charity for Buick lovers.

    If TA said it will cost $3000 and they will be ready in 18 months. I would say sign me up and where do I guarantee the payment when the product is shipped.

    Mike at TA should say to the 350 crowd put up or shut up. The problem is they have not said it will take "X" number of sold orders for us to want to spend time and money on the program. When there are enough we will go forward with it.

    I believe that all new projects for Buick will come to this point. There just isn't enough potential for someone to be willing to spend their own dime on a new project without getting most of the costs covered. We need to come up with a way that companies will make the parts we want with low to no risk.

    Prepayment is a good option for the vendor, but not the customer.

    A build it and they will come is good for the customer, but not the vendor.

    The middle ground is sold orders where payment is not due until the product is shipped. If the vendor fails to make to parts than the customer is not at risk. If the vendor makes the parts then they get paid. The idea isn't much different than a letter of credit. A bank is between the two parties. I provide a purchase order and a letter of credit to the vender. I have to take care of payment details to get the letter of credit, but don't have to pay until it is executed. The vender makes the parts and once they are shipped provide shipping documents to the bank for payment. This system is used everyday when doing business internationally. We can make it work here.

    If this approach is taken than products will be made with low risk to the vendors and only the projects that have enough interest will be tooled.

    By the way Devon I passed all of my business classes.
     
  10. DaWildcat

    DaWildcat Platinum Level Contributor

    No worries, Matt...I was pointing my invisible finger elsewhere.

    Devon
     
  11. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    They want to sell all their 455 stuff, conversion parts, intakes, heads. Not providing parts for the 350 tends to make people go for a 455 and write a fat check for all the parts TA has already developed. Don't run off Mike. It's not going to help anyone. If you won't develop parts, someone else will and is some cases already has. Can you smell lost money?:Brow: We just want you to not think your too big to have another business take the lead.:TU:
     
  12. captjim

    captjim Well-Known Member

    WOW! My little intake thread has gone wild! That's OK, I like a lively conversation.

    I am a small business owner, I know what Mike is saying. These "Niche" markets are really tough. Yeah, the big boys have ignored the SBB. Maybe there is a reason why? There are a LOT of smart businessmen out there, don't you honestly believe that if there was a viable market that VIC or one of the other companies already established would offer a new product line? I race pretty regularly, I am usually the only Olds powered car and very seldom do I see a Buick or Pontiac of any kind and when you do they are usually 455s. An Olds 350 can use 455 heads, cams, and other parts, so we are lucky in that regard. And, we can use 400 SBC parts, too. One huge flaw I see in the Buicks is that parts interchangability isn't that great.

    In closing, not breaking anyone's chops, but if developing 350 Buick parts is a great opportunity, put some $ together and start a company to fill this need. I work at a shop that builds race engines, I go to nostalga races, brackets, and car shows, I just don't see enough guys out there to justify the investment. I can certainly understand why Mike is reluctant to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into a project that will take years to be successful, if ever. Again, I think if there was a market, one of the big boys would have filled it. Just my opinion, Jim
     
  13. SS-TRUCK

    SS-TRUCK Stage 1 X

    Very well said Jim !! Money talks and b/s walks .
     
  14. 71customConv

    71customConv Platinum Level Contributor

    SS-Truck and captjim,

    First up I have stated that I don't expect anyone to tool something with no chance of making money.

    Second I would hope that the Buick community could work with the suppliers to get what we want without putting them at adverse risk. The simplest way to do that is to have an acceptable number of orders before the tooling is started.

    Again that does not mean the vendor will make millions. It should just mean that most, if not all of the tooling could be amortized over the first orders. TA stated on the V6 block they need 75 orders to break even on the tooling. All I am asking for is tell the 350 guys how many they need to sell to do it. Is it 50, 75, 100?

    If someone says it will take 50 sets of heads to make it worth their while than it is up to us(350 lovers) to put up or shut up. If we are given the opportunity and fail than shame on us. We as a group may fail, but I will be in line with my money in hand hoping there are enough of us to make it happen.
     
  15. captjim

    captjim Well-Known Member

    That would certainly be a good indication of whether there was a market or not. If you could get 50 guys to put up half up front, that would show a LOT of good faith. :)

    The other thing you'll run into is that not everybody will want the same thing. Some guys will want a stock replacement, others an improved chamber and design but that will use stock intake and exhaust manifolds, others will want a full race head with raised ports requiring special manifolds and rockers. It really is hard to please everyone.
     
  16. 70sLark

    70sLark Well-Known Member

    I passed small biz 101, find a hole and fill it.
    There is a hole in the 350 market and someone needs to fill it.
    We are just trying to make it happen.
    No offence if you dont want to Mike or JR.
    But we will still bug ya about it ever so often.
     
  17. Jim Blackwood

    Jim Blackwood Well-Known Member

    The heart of the matter is that Mike's in a niche market. If you've tried to survive in one, you know how hard it can be. At least he doesn't have every single potential customer telling him he's charging too much, and his market is survivable. With due care he can even prosper. But that means making decisions on new products very carefully. Nobody has a crystal ball, not even the smartest fresh faced college kid on the planet. So to a large degree it's a crap shoot. You have to go where you're most certain the money is. You can follow your heart to some degree, but that's not good business, it's a luxury.

    Who is in the best position to see the big picture? Usually the business owner. Certainly it isn't one single individual, owning one Buick, who spends a fair amount of time on Buick forums, and who is not a business owner. As for opinions, well you know the saying, everybody has one.

    So here's mine. On another thread we think we've figured out how to use one head, based on existing patterns, to give better performance to the entire SBB line. OK, sure that's an oversimplification. The 350 would need a custom cam grind and 340/300/215 headers, the 300, 340 and 350 would need manifold spacer plates, and a dedicated 350 head could be designed with a better port layout. But Mike Sr. himself told me it should be possible to cut and splice the V6 patterns to do it. The point is, IF the V6 heads breathe better than the stock cast iron 350 heads this is the *fastest* route and the one most likely to pay for itself in a reasonable length of time, and if it does happen to succeed beyond expectations because now people have an excuse to buy more performance parts and all the other arguments above, it makes production of the dedicated 350 heads MORE likely, not less. Bear in mind, some people will buy the heads for performance, some for weight reduction, and some for other reasons.

    Is it an ideal solution? Of course not. Is it a halfway measure? Most definitely in regards to the 350, and to a lesser degree with the other engines. But it's just one more thing that Mike, as business owner and manager has to think long and hard about before investing hard earned dollars in a product that might not pay back the development costs. It's not like you just wave a magic wand and these things appear. Development costs many, many times the retail price of the finished part and can easily break the bank if not tightly controlled.

    So I say, quitcherbitchin and give the guys a break. All you have to see is their progress on the alloy BBB block to know they're doing the best they can and I for one think their progress is very commendable. I may even find a way to buy one of those alloy blocks in the not too distant future. In the meantime, I'm sure glad they're in this business cause some of the parts I need would be difficult or impossible to find without them.

    Jim
     
  18. Justa350

    Justa350 I'm BACK!

    That's exactly what I've done, and now I'm making parts for an aerospace company to stay afloat. I would be VERY hesitant to throw a bunch of money into single planes and heads if I were TA.



     
  19. 71customConv

    71customConv Platinum Level Contributor

    Mark,

    Would you do it if enough people placed orders and somehow guarnteed payment?
     
  20. Jim Blackwood

    Jim Blackwood Well-Known Member

    That's why they created escrow accounts.

    Jim
     

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