Please tell me I don't have to pull the heads off

PULL THE HEADS......ou:

 

Ugh, well at least you're getting somewhere. Maybe the machine shop hit water if the exhaust seats were replaced? Didn't you say that you wanted AL heads anyway? ou:

Kudos to Chad for taking the time and helping out. I think Les is getting experience the hard way, like many of us did.

 

Pull the heads and take them back to whomever did the work on them.

 

I believe Les plans on taking the whole she-bang to the last shop and make them pay, reimburse, or buy new heads...
I did what I could to impart my experience and the recommended shops for machine work if needed. He's got a beautiful car and it is nice to have a guy willing to be patient and learn. For what he's gone through, I kept telling him he is a better man than I - cause if it were me there would have been some ugly scenes at each place that screwed up...:af:

I would definitely put the squeeze on whoever did the head work...and clearly layout a time line when replacement/repair/new heads are returned and CC a lawyer. It should be a crime to have such a nice guy and a nice car wait. :beers2:

 

Its odd you couldn't make it leak with the pressure tester. I wonder why it would only leak while turning the motor over. Hopefully the machine shop stands behind their work.

 

My theory is that both exhaust valves were shut or very close to shut at the time we did all that pressure checking since it appears the leak is around the stems/guides. The whole coolant system was under constant pressure for several minutes at a time and we took our time looking things over and checking. That's all I got, because I am otherwise stumped. The only time we cranked was at the end of the investigation.

Edit: Maybe the valve guide moved when it was cranked letting the water in?

I leave it to the experts and the machine shop. I just hope this works out well, cause there is too much money tied up in this engine across these shops. Something has to turn out good sooner or later for this guy. o No:

 

I'm thinking the issue is in the seats. Perhaps the closed valve was applying enough pressure to seal the seat. I know that a very short seat must be used in Buick heads, the casting is a little thin there.

 

maybe, before condemning the heads. pull the carb, look into the port. and see if its coming in from the intake gasket. unless its coincidental that both head ports that are messed up are right beside the coolant ports in the intake valley. it didnt leak until you turned it over, most likely, because the intake valve was open and it was just filling the cylinder up.

 

Thats a good point. I thought the pressure tests would have ruled it out but it doesn't hurt to double check everything.

EDIT: Crap! I forgot to mention that we did crank with all spark plugs in place at the end and felt with my hand over the radiator fill hole. No pulsing felt. Then we proceeded to remove #1 to find TDC to set the distributor and then the water came.

 

If hardened exhaust seats were installed, I agree that's an unfortunate source of hitting coolant passages.

When I told my shop I wanted hardened seats, they said "no" until I provided a junk head for them to experiment on. This was the 1980's when there was no published (or internet) stuff to go on.

In the photo below, you can see one and about a half of exhaust seat cuts they made into the junk head. They hit water on two of four (the ones pictured). the third they didn't, but made a fourth cut after finding a source for a really narrow seat and cut it less for a bigger safety factor. I had them install the narrowest seats they found.

The head at the top was one they finished.

http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/chambers.jpg

Again, if seats were installed without understanding what the Buick head can tolerate, the seat might very well stay in place but leakage could happen if the coolant jacket was cut.

Devon

 

well, you could test the seat theory by pressuring up the cooling system with the rockers off then opening the valve by hand. and see if it loses pressure.

 

I think with the engine out we're going to need to provide the "how to's."
I know Les had some family obligations today right after we pulled the motor. So he's got some reading to do.:Smarty: As I was leaving he had the engine stand readied for the long block. I'm willing to continue poking at it to be darn sure it isn't the heads/valves, but I'm 40 miles away so we'd need to plan another weekend. I guess we should have rechecked the intake bolts as well. I convinced myself it must be a head/valve issue once pulled it and saw water on the valve stems...it still doesn't explain the odd object in #3. I think that alone merits a return of the heads to the prior shop.

 

What intake is he using?

 

Chad first I really appreciate you taking the time to come and look at this thing for me, and I have to say the first hour you were there I was really starting to think I had made this issue up in my head, Until it started pouring out at the collectors again. I would love to say that I am going to break this thing down and really figure out what the H#$$ is wrong with it but I am so sick of this thing right now that I have no desire to deal with it anymore. I am going to take the entire engine to sundance auto and let them tear it apart, and I am sure make every excuse in the book as to why this was not something they did, and try not to go to Jail in the process.

My Mechanic wants to tear it down and go completely through the motor again, to ensure the deck is clean and that the block has no crack in it. Ordinarily I would have no problem airing on the side of caution with him on this but all I am seeing is dollar signs when I hear tear it all the way back down.

 

Brand New SP1

 

I'd start small. Pull the heads, a good shop can pressure test them.

Chad, you did great, and you speak better than you think.

Devon

 

It would have hydro-locked if that was the case.

 

If it turns out that the heads are toast which I suspect they are would you mess with the block at all?

 

Let me know if you want another set of eyes or ears when they take it apart if anything take Scrappy up on his offer. Ignoring the "coolant" issue there is still no excuse for the object in #3 <--it is easier to see it in the video. With that alone the shop can not possibly stand up to any excuse. You got this, we'll get that Buick on the road as it should.:3gears:

 

Sorry to hijack the response. I would recommend to at least have the deck checked for flatness (probably the wrong term). If you had it already "cleaned up" prior to putting the heads on this round and had not had the engine run I would believe you are good to go - leave the block alone. Do you agree DaWildcat?