OT - United Airlines...

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by John Codman, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    If a policeman/security has the authority to board an airplane and order you to "GET OFF NOW" , and you refuse, well that's on you. Right or wrong that can be worked out later. In the "NOW" he or she has an order to produce an end result. "No" is not an option. If it were then there would be no authority. People don't respect police these days and think they are above the law. I'm no angel, but I do understand how the police can get caught up in the moment. They are not robots. They are real people like me and you. They should have thrown him out the emergency exit. They had a clear job to do and the authority to do it.

    Chris Rock said it well

     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  2. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    I have seen the Chris Rock video before and I love it. As to your above post, the key word is your first - if. I'm taking your comment about throwing the guy out the emergency exit as tongue-in-cheek; he didn't threaten anyone, he was not violent, and he had purchased a ticket to his destination. He had the reasonable expectation that the airline would make it's best effort to get him to that destination safely, and in a timely manner. United failed miserably at meeting it's obligation.
     
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  3. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    When it becomes obvious that you are going to be forcibly removed from "their" plane, it seems like you would just go on your own two feet. I don't agree that what United did was right, but they did have the right to do it.

    That's what all of the airline experts on NPR have said anyway.
     
  4. gscalifornia

    gscalifornia Small blocks rule!!

    If you haven't read Mike Rowe's (Dirty Jobs) answer to a reader's question about how he would have handled the United debacle if he was the CEO of United, read on.

    “Hi Donna

    “Like most people, I don’t enjoy seeing passengers dragged down the aisle of a commercial airplane, limp and lifeless. Nor do I enjoy seeing them hogtied at 37,000 feet, (which I’ve also had the occasion to witness – in person – and more than once.)

    “These kinds of episodes are always disturbing, but what bothered me initially about this video was not just the violence, it was the obvious ease with which it could have been avoided. A little common-sense and the freedom to apply it could have resolved this situation in a dozen different ways. Last night however, I watched a tape of United’s CEO, Oscar Munoz, as he attempted to walk back some earlier comments. He told ABC news that the passenger in question – David Dao – “did nothing wrong.”

    “Now, I’m no longer disturbed, Donna. I’m merely terrified.

    “Is Oscar serious? God, I hope not. I hope he’s just doing the typical “over-apology” thing CEO’s do when their “crisis experts” tell them they’ve got to say whatever it takes to win back the public trust. I hope he’s just reacting to some lawyer who told him before the interview, “for the love of God, Oscar, don’t blame the victim!” Well, Oscar certainly didn’t blame the victim. But in the process of finding him blameless, he suggested that millions of passengers are under no obligation to follow a direct command from United employees. And that’s a hell of a lot more disturbing than a beat-down in the main cabin.

    “Here’s the thing. It’s easy to forget that we have no right to fly. Buying a ticket doesn’t change that. So, when we board the plane, we have no right to remain there. We can be legally removed if we’re too drunk, too loud, too creepy, too suspicious, or too big for the seat. We can be removed if we stink. We can be removed if we’re insubordinate. We can be removed for whatever reason the airline deems necessary.

    “Obviously, airlines don’t like to remind us of such things, because it makes them sound mean. So they bury the truth in the fine print of a 37,000-word contract, and tell us how much they love us in sappy commercials and mandatory safety briefings that try oh-so-hard to make us smile. But the facts are clear: if you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told. If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.

    “Personally, I support this policy. I support it because I don’t want to fly across the country in a steel tube filled with people who get to decide which rules they will follow and which they will ignore. I’ve been on too many flights with too many angry people to worry about the specific circumstances of their outrage, or the details of why they took it upon themselves to ignore a direct command. A plane is not a democracy, and the main cabin is no place to organize a sit-in. The main cabin is a place to follow orders.

    “Moving forward, what matters most to me is a heightened respect for the rules, and a heightened respect for the people who enforce them. Obviously, the policies that led to this particular fiasco need to change. But the greatest enemy we face in the friendly skies is not bad service – it’s anarchy. And I have no interest in flying with anyone who doesn’t follow orders. Do you? Does anyone?

    “Let me say it again. United made a business decision that was unbelievably, incomprehensibly stupid, and now they’re paying for it. (Seriously guys – what did you think was going to happen with two hundred citizen-reporters armed with cameras?) Point is, this is how the market is supposed to work. Their stock is down hundreds of millions of dollars, their customers are flying on other carriers, and according to CNN, they just might be the most hated company in the world today. But that doesn’t mean Dr. Dao “did nothing wrong.” He did. He ignored a direct order from a United representative while sitting on a United plane. He was told to leave and he refused to do so – multiple times by multiple people – all with the proper authority.

    “Does that mean he deserved a beating? Of course not. But it doesn’t mean he’s innocent. Like the airline, Dr. Dao had options. He had recourse. He could have deplaned and pled his case to the gate agent. But he didn’t. He chose resistance. That was dumb. United chose confrontation. That was dumber. Now, here we are. Dumb and Dumber.

    “As for your question, Donna – if I were Oscar Munoz, I’d take a page from Charlotte McCourt, the 11-year old Girl Scout who became famous on this page for telling the truth about how Girl Scout cookies actually tasted, and then, wound up selling more Girl Scout cookies than anyone else in the world. First, I’d stop apologizing for the way in which that passenger was removed, and start apologizing for being cheap and short-sighted. Then, I’d apologize for valuing rules more than common sense. Then, if United still insists on overbooking future flights, I’d publicly empower my employees to offer any amount of money to entice people off of an over-sold plane. Whatever it takes – no cap, no limit.

    “But through it all, I’d make damn sure the world understood that passengers on my airline still need to follow the orders given by my people – even if they think those orders are stupid or unfair. And for that, I would make no apology whatsoever.

    “Finally, let me say to my many friends on the front line of the airline industry – flight attendants, pilots, gate agents, and those of you behind the counter – I appreciate what you do, sincerely, and I understand how difficult things are right now. Your jobs have become increasingly thankless over the years, even as they have become more critical. Thanks for your hard work.
    Mike

    “PS. Oscar – I’ve prepared a new greeting for your pilots to read prior to take-off. I think it captures the kind of transparency many of your customers currently crave. Maybe one day, as I pull my seatbelt low and tight across my hips, I’ll get to hear it…

    “Morning folks, and welcome aboard. This is your Captain speaking. I realize you paid a lot of money to rent the seat you’re currently occupying, but let’s be clear right from the get go – you have no right to be here. We’re glad that you are, but I don’t care how much you paid to fly with us today, or what you think you might be entitled to as a result. I’m in charge of this plane, and everyone on it. That includes you. So – if a flight attendant asks you to do something, don’t argue – just do it. We’ll try to make your flight as comfortable as possible, but make no mistake – your comfort is not our priority, and neither is your opinion about the decisions we make during the journey. As for safety, you’ll be pleased to know I have much to live for, and so does my co-pilot. So rest assured – we’ll be doing all we can up here to get ourselves back on the ground in one piece. That’s good news for the rest of you, assuming we can keep the main cabin attached to the cockpit. Finally, we value your business here at United, sincerely. And we appreciate the trust you’ve placed in us. But let’s not gild the lily. For the next few hours, we’re all in this together, so keep your hands to yourself, don’t get drunk, and listen to the flight attendants. In other words, try not to be an asshole. I’ll see you on the ground…”

    “Now that’s an airline I could get behind! Who’s with me?

    “Mike”
     
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  5. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Classic Reflections

    Mike certainly has a good narration voice, but like most in the entertainment business, he probably should learn to stay out of it. I think one too many crabs bit him on the nose. There are no steel tubes in the business. For the most part the aircraft fuselage is made up of aluminum and composite materials. Pilots need his sympathy? Are you kidding me? Has he looked at their pay rates? Has he considered how hard they must work? Has he looked at their work week? Staying awake or even half way at attention is the hardest thing they have to do. Thankless jobs? Okay, that's where he completely lost me.

    Try being a mechanic. You listen to every passenger deplaning tell him he made such a good landing when you know damn well the aircraft not only likely flew the entire leg with little input, it probably performed a satisfactory autoland as well. Countless engineers, assemblers, and mechanics that made that possible, most of them making a fraction of what a pilot makes, and receiving absolutely no thanks. A lead mechanic of mine once did a college thesis on what he called the airline inequity theory. That was based on the reaility that all other airline employees are permanently demoralized by the compensation a pilot received compared to the other airline employees. Never did it bother me more than when we also traveled out of town. Our per diem was a fraction of what theirs was. When we would ask management why that was the case, the answer was that they were accustomed to a higher standard of living.

    Ten dollars says there was a United pilot in the gatehouse or jetway demanding they get on that flight and the fourth passenger be removed. I'd bet more, but as I say, I'm just a mechanic. This wasn't an overbooking issue folks. Those are handled in the gate area prior to boarding. These were last minute crew members exercising their entitlements. It's my understanding the equipment waiting for them was due out the following day. Let them travel from Chicago to Louisville in what we frequently had to use on a short haul; a 1990 something F-350 that the company is too cheap to even balance the wheels on, pulls hard to the right, has a miss in the engine, and has a broken down seat. I doubt the Chief Pilot will even hassle them if they stop off in Indy for a little Waffle House, unlike the "what took you so long" the rest of the employees would all too frequently hear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  6. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Mike Rowe does have a point. The pilot has legal overall command of that aircraft; to the point where if he wanted you off at 37,000 ft, he could legally do so.
    Now of course there's no way anyone can be thrown off an airplane in flight; - but the point is, once you've entered the aircraft the crew has the power of life and death over you, regardless of what you've paid or who you think you are. And that law applies in every country on the planet.
    Was the system abused? Who knows; it isn't in United's best interests to say if it was. We'll probably never know for sure and supposition is easy. Was it handled stupidly? Oh yes, it sure was, no question. That is the one fact we have here. And yes, I'm sure all of those in the industry have their stories; I know in my industry I've got all the stories too. That's a fact of dealing with people; they're fallible and make dumb mistakes or set up stupid processes that don't always work.
    As for pilot's pay scales; - Sorry, I can't agree with you there; I have an idea of the kind of training they go through, constantly go through, and the shape they have to keep themselves in just in order to keep the job. Is it cushy? Most of the time yes; but then there are those instances that you never hear about where the guy up front had to make some quick decisions and do some serious flying or overriding failed systems or what have you that makes those prone to being overly sanctimonious so upset when they're late or the seatbelt sign is on too long. Most pilots don't make in the $100,000 territory; - only those who do long haul international stuff, and who invariably have a ton of experience. Yes, those are the guys who get the 200K and seem to have it made. It's not fair when you consider the mechanic is the guy who makes the plane fly and does the hard work. The mechanic may only make a fraction of what the pilot does, but he's been making it since the start of his career, the pilot has not.
    So you can't go basing it on that; a mechanic starts making real money when he gets out of school, a pilot starts making the same kind of money when he's flown for about 10 years. For the first 5 years or so of his training, it's nothing but school and hours, usually at the pilot's personal expense. Most airlines want the PIC to have a degree before he starts flying, a mechanic only needs his trade seal and he's making money. Most guys I used to fly with are all out of the industry, only a very lucky few made it. Most went broke and had to get real jobs. Most pilots retire flying "blue collar" jobs; - they make a paltry wage flying some little crap box who knows where and have to do all the work from loading, fueling to general servicing of the airplane, plus they have all the responsibility. Usually he's "made it" only after he lands a real airline job and the left seat. Otherwise, most top out and average between $40,000 to $80,000 flying feeder line routes in all types of weather and doing long hours.
    And lastly; if it wasn't for the fact that Captain "Sully" knew enough to think on his feet and trim the airplane for best glide before all the power failed and then successfully ditch the thing into the river you'd have read about 100 some-odd deaths instead of a hero. He had a very good idea and feel for what his airplane could do; far better than the armchair QBs at the FAA or Airbus, and he took a bad situation and made it work out. That's a guy who I would fly with again.
    Is the mechanic not respected? No, probably not. As a pilot, I respect what an AME has to know and the work he does to keep me flying. But it isn't good PR to ask your passengers to applaud the efforts of the AMEs that kept the plane from falling apart in mid air, it's easier and more visible to thank the guy who did have your life in his hands, the pilot.
     
  7. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Classic Reflections

    Anyone over 5 years old knows the rules of the road. The pilot wasn't commanding anything as they were parked at the gate and the pax (paying customer) posed no safety of flight risk. Mike's point is pointless.

    I'll concede this ~Sully is a hero and that was a miracle, thank God!
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  8. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    I am!
     
  9. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    that's fine and dandy. except he agreed to get off the plane if he was asked too. they asked him to get off the plane. he refused to comply and left them no choice. United had the reasonable expectation for him to comply with the agreement. he didn't and he got what was coming to him.

    go anywhere, literally anywhere and refuse to leave. it will become physical and you will leave in cuffs. how is any of this United's fault?

    I feel for the guy. no one wants their itinerary changed. for whatever reason. however, he lost the lottery and should have gotten off. United made the right choice by sticking to their guns and throwing him off.
     
  10. bw1339

    bw1339 Well-Known Member

    I think both parties were at fault. I loathe flying these days and I am always happy to throw my vitriol on the airlines and TSA, but that man was clearly not in his right mind, judging by his behavior. Any sane person knows that if you are told to leave a plane and you refuse, men with handcuffs will be coming to get you.

    I do hope this incident brings some badly needed attention at how the public is treated like cattle and quasi-criminals the moment they enter an airport.
     
  11. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Flying in this day and age is a PIA; - there's no fun in it at all. The airlines feign customer service, but all it is is an oversized bus. There's no comfort as they shoe-horn you into smaller seats, there are no frills like a meal or a gratuitous drink or even a bloody cushion unless you are prepared to pay extra. Now we're forced to put up with everyone else's bad habits, lack of class and civility, bad manners and lousy cooking smells. Everyone has rights; "I'm fat, I deserve two seats," or "I'm religious, I shouldn't have to put up with that other filth and smell of their forbidden foods", or "I paid good money and I'm going to get my money's worth regardless of how offensive it is, they don't like it, tough". What about the rest of us, the normal people, the types who are heralded by political wannabes as supposedly the "salt of the earth" at every election time yet ignored by absolutely every interest group, shunned by every "progressive" group and left for rubes by anyone with a supposed education? We're just trying to mind our own business...yeah, this could go on; small wonder people snap and the latest phenomenon is "Air-rage". So I get it that the crews react badly, the passengers are unruly, and going anywhere is an ordeal and not a pleasure.

    That's not to justify anyone involved in that incident's behavior. Everyone is at fault, and everyone is lying to cover up. The winner will be up to who has hired the better lawyer, that will then become the accepted version of the story. Cause and effect is irrelevant here.

    We're going to hear a lot about airlines acting poorly in the next few months as this story stays in the media's focus. Hopefully it may spurn the airlines to look after their customers more rather than packing them in like lemmings and hurling them into the unknown.

    I doubt it.
     
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  12. David G

    David G de-modded....

    On the contrary, United DID have a choice. They failed to offer the maximum amount their own policy allowed them to offer, in order to get the number of volunteers they were looking for. They were authorized to offer a lot more, why didn't they? It was their own employees that they wanted to place on board, why didn't they offer as much as they could in order to make that happen? Especially in this situation where passengers were already seated, which is NOT a typical point in time for looking for "volunteers".

    The doctor may not have been legally right, but that doesn't make United right.

    And with that, I've seen enough of this topic, maybe if we're all lucky our moderators will decide they've seen enough also.
     
  13. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    United or any airline is under no obligation to offer incentives to customers to give up their seats.

    why they didn't offer everything they could is anyone's guess. in hindsight they should have. I agree with you there.
     
  14. David G

    David G de-modded....

    I'm sure you're right, that they are not obligated, and yet it is their policy to do so. They've now increased that # to almost $10k... I don't think they're hurting for funds to buy volunteers.

    My wife is stuck flying United most of the time for work travel, and I can say, she is not happy to be getting on their plane on Sunday.
     
  15. DauntlessSB92

    DauntlessSB92 Addicted to Buick


    It's nice working for a Cargo airline. No more pax to worry about. I remember when I started at Expressjet though. It was pretty intimidating getting on a plane full of people for the first time to repair an overhead bin. Sometimes people would ask what you were doing and clap when you were done. Other times no-one even acknowledged you were there. I think most of them were scared to see a 21yr old on the plane with tools haha.

    It's not a pilot vs mechanic/ support staff situation I don't think. Some pilots really appreciate and understand the work everyone does to keep planes flying. Others are just self centered and don't worry about anyone else. As far as pay, I think topped out there shouldn't be the large pay discrepancy that currently exists.

    You do have to consider how pilots start out though. They spend a couple hundred thousand on schooling. Then they have to amass over 1000 flying hours before a regional airline can even look at them. When they finally start in the right seat at some regional outfit, they barely make the equivalent of minimum wage. When I started at United express I made double what the F/Os made per year. My schooling cost a fraction of what pilot training does. I have also been able to move up the ladder very quick.

    A pilot will spend more than 15 years and 10s of thousands of flying hours to reach the peak of their career. For what pilots go through I don't regret my career choice. So many say I should be an engineer or a pilot as they are better jobs but I'm glad I've ended up where I am now.
     
  16. 73Electra 225

    73Electra 225 Well-Known Member

    I agree that fault lies with both parties, but I think United could have easily avoided the whole fiasco if they had a more well thought system, i.e. The system should automatically choose at least two alternates in the lottery system. Then when going down the list, if person#4 says "I'm a doctor and have patients in the morning", then the policy should be okay, go to alternate #1, no questions asked.​
     
  17. superlark

    superlark Guest

    He agreed to the contract.
    He can get pissy if he wants, but to say you didn't know...

    I was always taught to respect authority. You may not like their decision, but you can avoid a whole lot of grief by complying. Nowadays people talk sh!t to all sorts of authority, police and the like. At the time it may not seem like anything but it causes the whole system to be harder on everyone.

    And, I might add, that things are worked out much easier when both parties discuss things like rational human beings, not children throwing a temper tantrum.

    I don't care if you're a doctor, a construction foreman, a berry picker - we're all equal.
     
  18. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    That was a very insightful post!

    Looks like more people may be trying to fly with United now that they said that they will be offering up to the max of $10,000 to bump someone from their seats! Buy a plane ticket like its a lottery ticket can be their new slogan!

    I suspect that their stock prices should recover and perhaps go higher after earnings reports from the extra people flying to try and win the lottery!

    So it does look like some good has come from this, and I for one if I have to fly will be playing the lottery and flying United! :cool:


    Derek
     
  19. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    A settlement was made today (Thursday). Details have not been disclosed.

    United's stock, UAL, dipped to 67.75 on April 18 (8 days after the incident) and is now back to 70.7 ..... only about a 4% change.... it's back to where it was before Dr Dao had his temper tantrum. It's a fairly volatile stock anyway. This incident is pretty much insignificant.

    On a positive note, this incident has brought a lot of attention to some really lousy policies. In the end, the consumer should come out ahead.
     
  20. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    Then it's up to someone to decide who the most important person is. What if the alternate had to be at a garbage collection job in the morning?
     

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