Any updates? recommendations question (Re: New Oil tech..) Dear V-8 Buick lubrication specialists, Oil has been a popular topic this summer and I habitually refer folks to this thread. It's been so long that I decided I'd better reread it myself! Thanks again Jim for posting this information. Lots of good info! :TU: Thanks to everyone else to contributed additional snippets. However, the last material added to this thread was over a year ago. Is there anything new since then that might be important to know? In addition, I have two application questions: Jim is finishing up the super-deluxe big-block engine for my trusty wagon. This engine does have a hydraulic roller cam. Even so, it seems that the recommendation is to go with an oil like Joe Gibbs HR-2. Any strong disagreements on that? In addition to our wagon that has been finally broken in after all these years, we have an "immature car." It is a 2000 Buick Century . . . . barely started on getting it "properly seasoned." :grin: In reading this thread, I'm seeing that oil technology has changed a lot in even the paltry 12 years this car has been on the road. I should I be looking at some other oil or additives to bring today's oils back to 2000 specs!?!?? uzzled: Funny how situations like this remind me of the old saying of: Going to hell in a hand-basket . . . . :af: Cheers, Edouard :beer
David Visard recommends this: http://oilextreme.com/ It supercedes ZDDP!!!!!! "widely unknown" right DOC?
OK, resurrecting a long dormant thread. As I approach final assembly and near that first fire up time. I something like Lucas break-in additive or Royal Purple break-in oil a viable candidate? If not, is there something I can purchase at NAPA or O'Reilly's easily?
I believe this is what JW recommends. If I had to break in a flat tappet cam, I'd fill my crankcase with this oil, http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/br-30-break-in-oil.html
Stumbled upon this thread because of your resurrection. After reading the posts it got me thinking about the oil I use, Royal Purple, Synthetic, 10W 30W. Went to their website and information concerning its ingredients are qualitative. Additives in general, We strongly recommend against using any oil additives as do most automotive manufacturers. Engine oils are formulated with a fine balance of additives (anti-foam, corrosion inhibitors, anti-wear,detergent / dispersants, oxidation inhibitors), and more is not necessarily better. The use of an oil additive could upset the balance resulting in reduced performance. And ZDDP specifically, All Royal Purple engine oils contain the zinc/phosphorus compound zincdialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). Royal Purple HPS and XPR lines of engine oils are formulated with a higher concentration of these elements and are suitable for both roller and flat tappet valve trains. It would have been nice if quantitative data were available. I do not think I be changing brands just yet, but definitely going to be looking into this more closely. Oh, I will still be putting a bottle of ZDDP in at every oil change. http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/
Engine Professional article also a good reference (Re: New Oil tech..) Dear V-8 Buick oil tech investigators, Jon Baker gave us a pointer to two articles in the latest issue Engine Professional that is available online. As he wrote: This article describes basically the same issues that Jim Weise mentions in his initial posting on this thread. However, there is more background and the being a magazine article, it might be easier to follow. Cheers, Edouard :beer
Interesting read, bu not for our cars if you reread this thread and then oilXtremes clipping you ll know hy Next, the Oil Extreme™ extreme pressure calcium carbonate additive package booster is integrated. This further enhances the thermal stability and oxidation properties, but most importantly it gives extreme pressure capabilities no other oil in the world has. When reading the competitor's advertisements they talk about film strength, but not extreme pressure. The re ason they don't mention it is because they don't have the Oil Extreme™ calcium carbonate additive technology. Yes! The major oil companies claim that their hydrocracked base oil is as good as synthetic base oils. We then use a standard API approved additive package, the same as they do. However, because we then blend the Oil Extreme™ calcium carbonate extreme pressure additive package booster which they don't have, we are able to guarantee that the Oil Extreme™ "Better Than Synthetic" Motor Oil will produce more horsepower than the best synthetic or petroleum oil in the world. if you just want to use dino oil, stick with an oil thats states zddp like summit brand/edelbrock or the joe gibbs oil linked in this thread..if you want synthetic ...again joe gibbs links in this thread or amsoil z-rod ---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ---------- if a bottle or company states they have ZDDP and phosphorus in their oil formulation package theres no need to add a bottle of zddp ontop of that...it'll also upset the balance of the additive package....the phrase too much of a good thing comes to mind.. just ask a RP dealer how much zinc and ph pp gthat have in their lineup..should be around 1400 zinc i'd imagine
Lots of info on line and lots of different opinions, so....My conclusion is: 1. Don't add ZDDP to any current oil (API dougnut, starburst, or SN markings) because they contain too much detergent, and won't allow the zinc to adhere to moving parts. 2. Don't add ZDDP to Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs, etc because you will cause an overdose of zinc which may cause scuffing. NOT GOOD! 2. You may add ZDDP to non-detergent oil such as a cheap "straight" 30w for break-in. 3. After break-in, order your Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs etc. REMEMBER: DO NOT ADD MORE ZDDP TO ANY OF THESE ZINC OILS! ALSO...Valvoline VR-1 RACING Oil (non-synthetic, low detergent) has matching amount (1300) of ZDDP and can be ordered at most any local auto parts store. Valvoline "RACING SYNTHETIC" oil (synthetic, low detergent) has 1400 zinc, also locally available.
So the VR-1 is a good choice for off-the-shelf oil for my old Buick 455. This is for use after initial break in. It's available at my neighborhood friendly local auto parts store. Disagree anyone?
Stoking the fire that seems to have gone out....... I came across this oil information and was wondering what the thoughts were regarding both the testing methods and ranking of oils? Be prepared for some reading. http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/ Scott
Interesting reference but nothing about flat tappet cams (Re: New Oil tech..) Dear Scott, Devon, and fellow maniacs about loving your V-8 Buick, Well, okay it is interesting, but anybody who insists he is infallible and isn't God . . . . . . . . . *hmmm* uzzled: Moreover, there is absolutely nothing about the wear of flat tappet cams in this research. Since a number of classic cars that had camshaft failures after ZDDP levels were reduced, I have to assume that their is a link between reduced ZDDP and flat tappet cam failure. I see that there is a Joe Gibbs oil that is highly rated. As usual, I'll try to have my cake and eat it too. This reference isn't enough to change my belief that older engines need an oil formulation closer to the oils that existed at the time the engine was designed than a modern formulation with has more to do with politics and environmental zeal than engineering. Cheers, Edouard :beer
Just wondering about the oil life in a car that might get 1,000 miles a year. Does the new stuff "hold together" and not break down? Once a year oil changes???
Re: Interesting reference but nothing about flat tappet cams (Re: New Oil tech..) Hi Edouard, I'm still working on separating the results reported from the author's reporting style as well. Your'e right, but the author did make a disclaimer that the tests were simply done to discover an oil's failure point using a specific test, which as described by the author and other SAE documents published, applies very well to the interface between a flat tappet camshaft lobe and the tappet (lifter) riding it. This brings up a really interesting question: is there a place we can see data regarding flat tappet cam failures that correspond with the reduction of Zinc Dialkyldithiophospates in oil in the past years? I'm guessing probably not, and perhaps there weren't many except for us crazy people running high spring pressures, but I don't know. And another question: After the mandated Zddp reduction, how did the oil formulators eventually solve their load carrying/film strength problems, and when? Personally I'd love to know more, because I was already aware of other high pressure ingredients in oil, but never knew what could or could not be mixed with what, and frankly I'm guilty of reading media and manufacturer recommendations and following them because a lot of other people did the same. Nothing very scientific about by behavior in that regard, I'm afraid. If an oil already has the capability of doing what I require of it, I sure don't want to spoil it by adding something that should not be added. Now, I just want to know more. More facts, that is! Don't we all. Devon
Re: Interesting reference but nothing about flat tappet cams (Re: New Oil tech..) .. nah, just us infomaniacs who love to reed geeky stuffs
Motorcycle manufacturers refused to cave on the ZDDP. I now use Mobil 1 10-40 or 20-50 motorcycle oil in my cars and bikes (1300 and 1750 ppm Zinc respectively) since they have reduced the zinc in Rotella. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf It's readily available around $8-9 per quart. No worries about additives and their potential impacts on the oil's original additive pack. I have read that it is a "PAO" and not a "group-3" base-stock like most Mobil 1 oils but have no factual support for that claim. Apparently most are blends of different bases as each has its drawbacks along with advantages such as seal-swell. Mobil refuses to say what their base stock is. Probably any of these modern bases is overkill short of an impending internal engine disaster. This oil certainly outperforms anything my newest bike (1997) or cars (2004) were designed to use, including anti-scuff properties, and which are much harder on oil than an old Buick. Wet-clutch bikes do have to avoid oil with "anti-friction additives" because they will make the clutch slip. That may be the additive that Devon was referring to; its reference seems to go on the bottle as the zinc gets reduced. Want to make yourself crazy with confusion and oil geekery? read bobistheoilguy.com and try to figure out who is right and who is not.
