New Engine is Knocking

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by KDML, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    If memory serves correct those 852's are Pontiac lifters. I went though this with Comp previously a few years ago. After they did their checking they indeed admitted to placing the improper information in the catalogs & online. They are WRONG!!! They have a 5/16ths. pushrod cup as opposed to a 3/8ths. pushrod cup. You can use 5/16ths. in a 3/8ths. cup, but not the other way around. Also on the Pontiac lifter the oil band is placed higher than the Buick/Cad. lifter #869 so the possibility of the oil band coming out of the lifter bore & hemorrhaging oil is a real possibility. Could explain what I thought I was seeing in the video.
    As for the over amount of oil to the heads. If you used composite head gaskets two things need to be done. To start with a shim steel gasket is approx. .015" when compressed. A composite can be anywhere between .033"-.048" compressed. A steel gasket acts as an oil "Restriction" whereas a composite doesn't have as much of a restriction. If using composite gaskets you MUST drill & tap the front oil feed hole to install a re-stricter plug with a .015"-.020" hole to limit the amount of oil going to the top. Why some engines need this while others DO NOT using composite gaskets I have no answer for other than I do this to ALL "Nail" heads by tapping so IF there is TOO much oil going to the top the restriction/limiter can be added at a later date if nec. 2nd. I drill & tap the rear hole & insert a plug there to help keep the oil from "weeping" though the layers of head gasket & causing a leak that you think is a rear main leaking, oil filter adapter, & many other possibilities when in fact it's actually oil weeping though the layers of head gasket. This doesn't happen usually after few miles or sometimes a few years. This will drive you nuts trying to find out where it's coming from. A steel ring should be installed around the oiling holes in the gaskets both front & rear that would solve this problem. I've talked with some of the various manufacturers about this & so far nothing has been done to improve upon the gaskets.
    Enough history/experience for one day.


    Tom T.
     
  2. KDML

    KDML Well-Known Member

    Thanks Tom

    This is completely frustrating. That's 3 different people from comp that provided me with the wrong information. I will be ordering the correct lifters.

    I have seen previous threads on adding the oil restrictors, but wanted to see how the engine ran first. I want to get past my valve train issue and then I will work on the oil flow issue. I suppose having a good amount of oil to the rockers is not a bad thing; I was just amazed at how much more oil I saw off the front rockers compared to the back. I am running a composite head gasket. Can you clarify which hole you are referring to in your statement "2nd. I drill & tap the rear hole & insert a plug there"?

    Thanks
     
  3. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    The heads can be used either left or right so there will be an oil feed hole to the rockers on each end. The rear dead heads to the block. There is really no significant oil pressure in this area since it's at the end, but oil will weep through the layers of gasket causing a leak. Even if you haven't drilled & tapped threads for a set screw type of plug you don't have to worry about metal fragments as they cannot go anyplace. Use a little grease on the end of the drill & the tap & this will contain most of the metal. You don't have to drill or tap more than about a 1/2".
    Understand???


    Tom T.
     
  4. KDML

    KDML Well-Known Member

    Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification
     
  5. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    Doug i remember telling you they were the wrong lifters when they sent them to you.i did call them myself and your right they said they would work., still might not be your problem you have to take the intake off and look for sure. i also was saying the best way to feed ta rockers is through the push rods and block the oil in the heads. roller tip rockers do not need much oil.you will have to break the new lifters in too
     
  6. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Yeah this is true Joe, but DON'T forget to go through the process you had to go through to prevent the problems you were experiencing with oil starvation for the crank bearings. People NEED to know BEFORE they experience the same problems.
    These are the things that happen when trying to improve upon an oiling system that was superior from the factory. I know of some who have tried to improve upon the factory design only to cause unforeseen other problems. Not all is as it appears. It might look good on paper but in actuality is a WRONG move.
    Just my thoughts on the subject.


    Tom T.
     
  7. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    your right Tom rod bearings too, found out had to much clearance on all the bearings, you always said keep tight clearances on the bearings and you were RIGHT. told them that to but I was at the mercy of the machine shop. but oiling with the pushrods have not been a problem(the motor has been run very hard) and keeps more oil for the lower end. if Doug is running both with the pushrods and rockers he will have oil coming out breather at a high rpm and that is from experience too, but that's not his problem right now. back on subject I would ask comp to give the specs on both lifters oil band. guys on the 455 site use the pro magnum lifters with great results. less noise and rev better. Doug, is there and metal in the oil from the cam lobes. I know what its like when something is messed up not a good feeling. intake has to come off to try to find whats going on.
     
  8. 72STAGE1

    72STAGE1 STAGE 1 & 2

    I run the TA roller rockers and had to stack valve cover gaskets to clear under my factory Stage 1 Vc's, it worked great, used black silicone sealer and glued them together let dry over night. Never has leaked a drop.
     
  9. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Yes, that's nec. with a 455 NOT a "NailHead". It's the width that's the problem.
     
  10. KDML

    KDML Well-Known Member

    Pulled the intake and valley pan last night. Spun motor over by hand and examined each lifter when on base circle and at max lift and did not see that the oil band came out of the lifter bore for any lifters (see first picture). It also appeared that the pushrod fit into the lifter pushrod cup well (see second picture). I did call the comp cams tech line again to see if there was a difference between the pushrod cup on both lifter part numbers and they said they were the same. I don't have an 869 to compare to. I posted a video of the engine spinning to my photo bucket account (link below). I did not see anything wrong.

    I am still questioning the pushrod clearance through the head and also the clearance to the valve spring. I added a couple of pictures to show what the clearance looks like. The third picture shows how tight the clearance is to the head for the #7 exhaust valve, when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam. This was the tightest clearance. I could not even get a .025" wire between the head and pushrod. The fourth picture shows the clearance between the pushrod and valve spring on #2 exhaust valve. Again, I could not insert the .025" wire between them. I can slide the rocker over some to gain more clearance, but not in all cases. The fifth picture shows how much the clearance opens up as the valve moves to max lift. Is there a recommended clearance? The stock pushrods did not have this issue as the length of the pushrod was smaller (last picture). Unfortunately, I can't use them as I needed a 8.3" pushrod length.

    I will keep examining as I pull the valve train apart

    http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/kdml1/media/Mobile Uploads/MVI_1945_zpsad922bf7.mp4.html

    IMG_1947.JPG IMG_1946.JPG IMG_1941.jpg IMG_1942.jpg IMG_1944.jpg IMG_1948.JPG
     
  11. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    Doug always thought to use swedged end pushrods not the ball end on ta rockers. the adjustment should only be at max 2 turns 1 to 1 1/2 is best. to short of pushrod would make them hit, there always going to be close. pull that pushrod you will see a ring if its rubbing. you need to re adjust every preload. 3/4 turn after you take up the clearance with out pushing the pushrod into the cup. also does it matter if the lifter band is out of the hole in the lifter bore and not out of the bore itself.
     
  12. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    Doug, have you considered putting the stock rockers back in to see if it still makes noise?

    You could try putting a timing light on different plug wires, and use it as a strobe light to inspect the moving components..... maybe you'll see something.

    If a pushrod it hitting something, it could cause the pushrod end to come out of the rocker socket a little.... and make noise when it pops back into place.

    BTW, you guys think it's coming from more than one cylinder? I thought it's too noisy to be just one.
     
  13. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    just got off phone with mike at ta-. he said the pushrods should be fine because they have a 5/16 ball and not 3/8 like the stock ones. and there solid so no oiling from pushrods so that's good too. also said you want as little as you can for the adjustment, the less the better. if there adjusted right has to be the lifters.
     
  14. KDML

    KDML Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, no time to continue my examination last night.

    Joe, thanks for confirming the correct pushrod ends with TA. I spoke to then before ordering the pushrods, so I was expecting the ball ends would be OK. I don't understand your comment "3/4 turn after you take up the clearance with out pushing the pushrod into the cup" Is it 3/4 turn, then another 1 to 1.5? Also, I don't understand your comment "does it matter if the lifter band is out of the hole in the lifter bore and not out of the bore itself" - can you clarify? I assumed if the oil band did not show outside the lifter bore, then I would not need to worry about the lifter bleeding down and causing slack in the valvetrain.

    The process I have been following to set preload has been to open up all adjustment screws all the way, until the screw cannot be backed out any further and install the rocker shafts. For each rocker I would spin the motor until the lifter was on the base circle of the cam (180 degrees from max lift). This was all done with the intake and valley pan off so I could see the exact position of the lifter. I would then turn the adjuster screw until there was no more slack, but stop before the pushrod started to push the cup into the lifter. From there I would turn the adjuster screw another full turn. Per TA's instructions, one full turn is .050" which is right in their recommended range of .030" to .060". I have also set the adjusters at 3/4 turn and 1.5 turn and it did not eliminate the noise. I am currently at 1.5 turns. I also backed out of the adjustment on a few rockers to see how far away I was from the adjustment screws being backed out all the way and the rockers I tested where in between 1.75 to 2 turns, from being completely backed out.

    The TA instructions state "Then rotate adjuster screw 1 to 1 1/2 turns to properly obtain lifter preload, (the manufacturers preferred running position and optimum adjustment is 1 turn out)". I just noticed it does not say anything about first adjusting the slack out of the valvetrain for each rocker. Shouldn't that be done before the final adjustment? Also, I don't understand the "the manufacturers preferred running position and optimum adjustment is 1 turn out" Anyone know what that means? One turn out from what?

    Walt, I will consider putting back the stock rockers and pushrods if my next round of changes don't work. I have been hesitant because they are a mess, after almost 50 years of being on the engine

    My next steps are to keep examining the pushrod interference with the head and valve spring. If I don't see any visible marks on the pushrods, I am going to mark them and reinstall to see if the marks are removed by the rubbing. I also plan to recheck pushrod length and examine rocker to valve stem geometry to make sure everything looks good. Finally, before I put everything back together I am considering buying a set of #869 lifters, just so I can eliminate them as a variable. If I can eliminate the lifter question, ensure the pushrods are not hitting the head or springs and everything else checks out and I still have a noise, then I might have to re-think valvetrain as the issue

    Thanks
     
  15. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    Doug, you did it right. take slack out and then one turn, I like 3/4 turn then when you tight down nut it will move on you anyways it will be closer to one turn. some of what your reading is for 455 rollers and not ours. they mean one turn out total from being backed out all the way. Mike likes as little as u can 1 turn total for the geometry. there is a oval feed hole in the lifter bore u will see when u pull out the lifter, I think the lifter oil band needs to stay in that oval hole and not be above that hole. someone help me out on that please?
     
  16. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    if you turn the adjuster to far down it will cut oil off to the roller tips, also the lifter has only so much travel you don't want pushrod down in lifter to far more then .060. should adjust ex valve when intake valve is just about to close. adjust intake valve just as the ex valve starts to open. fast ramp cams and roller rockers will make more noise then stock. when you broke cam in, the rpms had to be high, did the engine run bad or break up then ? if anybody disagrees or has some commits please speak up, to help out here. thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  17. 66BulldogGS

    66BulldogGS Platinum Level Contributor

    Have you physically measured the OD of one of the pushrods to make sure they are 5/16" and mistakenly 3/8"? 3/8" pushrods will bind up in the head and not allow you to achieve full lift of the cam. We found that out when trying to use a checker for push rod length on the race car. The 3/8" checker rod would bind up when we rolled the engine over. We may not have noticed it except we were using a mic on the spring retainer to check for full lift. It came up way short and thats when we figured out that it was binding up.
     
  18. riv1964

    riv1964 Well-Known Member

    As for the 3/8 verses 5/16 push rods, those sure look like larger pushrods based on the clearance in the hole, I'm running the TA roller rockers and don't remember the holes looking so tight even before I enlarged the the holes. I'm running the Trick Flow TFS-21408400 pushrods 8.4 inch long 5/16, they do make a TFS-21408300 8.3 inch, 5/16
    I can't answer the lifter issue, as I went with the solid roller lifters, which are quieter than I expected

    Roger
     
  19. KDML

    KDML Well-Known Member

    Continued disassembly and inspection last night. First picture shows comp cams lifter (left) in comparison to original lifter (right). You can see the how the oil band on the comp lifter is narrower and slightly higher. If the rule is to keep the oil band in the oil hole in the lifter bore, then I can tell you at max lift the oil band on the comp lifter is above the oil hole. As I previously mentioned, I am going to replace these lifters with the correct part #, as I want to be sure I can eliminate them as the problem

    Pulled all of the pushrods and found 4 of them had a nice ring where they were rubbing (picture #2) and yes they are all 5/16" diameter. Looks like I will be removing some material from the top of the hold in the head and the valve spring shim. I am thinking the trouble spots are circled in the last picture and I just need to remove a very small amount of material.

    Joe, the engine was not breaking up at higher rpms. In fact the engine runs quite well, except for the noise.


    photo6.jpg photo4.jpg photo3.jpg
     
  20. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    I looked at my old 869 lifters they look a lot like the stock ones. something to think about would be longer pushrods.
     

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