need to do it right this time

Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by partsrparts, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    going to the big city tomorrow to talk to the machinist who has been recommended to me by some of the local drag racers around here to see what he says about how much compression works around here with the altitude and octane ratings. i will also try to find out what his knowledge is on buick motors.

    when opening the oil passage to 1/2" you are talking about the vertical and horizontal passages going from oil pick up to front cover, correct? and then get the 5/8 pick up from TA?

    i will have the guides and seats checked on the heads, what else should i do to them? match port? valve pockets?
     
  2. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    Pocket port. Gasket match is timing consuming for little gain. Yes the horizontal and vertical port for oil supply from pan.then at the 90 where they intersect get a long die grinder and round and match up some to ease direction change . I do the timing cover also as I choose to. The Turbo v6 guys do also.
     
  3. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    thanks! TA pick up? and do you have a part # for that front cam bearing?
     
  4. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    I used a melling s20i5 pickup. Got at autozone. TA cam bearing ta1558 should be it. Follow directions as the oil holes are not to be lined up with oil holes in block.
     
  5. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    is the 60lb spring all i need to do to the oil pump?
     
  6. alec296

    alec296 i need another buick

    You can get the booster plate. But TA performance has a shim gasket kit to get oil pump clearance. Good clearance at pump and TA cam bearing should net decent oil pressure. With the big pick screen and drilled supply passage you should have plenty of supply volume.
     
  7. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Different relief springs come with an oil pump rebuild kit, its the gears, gaskets, and springs, OR get the TA adjustable oil pressure regulator, that way you can adjust for max pressure from the outside of the pump.
    If you don't want to go with the adjustable regulator, I believe the white spring will give you a maximum of 60 psi.
     
  8. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    pump was rebuilt when engine was, will check clearances when i get the new timing cover, if i just need the heavier spring where can i find this?

    found a performance engine builder with experience in buick motors, 2month backlog, will take motor to him after xmas, he says you can safely run up to almost 11to1 comp. at this alt. he's talking maybe custom pistons to get the compression needed instead of milling block and heads. especially if cyl. need to be bored again. Alec296 mentioned that they look a little loose and i tend to agree, you can see alot of the upper ring, but will know more in january.
     
  9. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    They come in a stock oil pump rebuild kit, it's the white spring in this picture.

    http://www.taperformance.com/prodimages/TA 1508.jpg


    http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=117828&cc=1013397&jsn=454

    19.10 at rockauto.com You get 4 springs with the Sealed power kit. The white spring is the 60 psi spring. The red one is 100 psi

    You can also use the adjustable regulator from TA,

    http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1502
     
  10. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA


    Custom pistons are around $800 just for pistons, not including wristpins which will be around $150 to $250.

    These pistons are customizable for a lot less that includes wristpins AND rings that are available in flat top or dish;


    http://www.buyracingparts.com/pisto...stons/autotec-forged-350-buick-pistons-1.html


    Find out what you block's deck height actually measures and you can order the above pistons with the compression distance you need. I believe the dish pistons are available in 2 different dish sizes, but if you can get 11:1 with the flat tops that would work out even better. You can also order them for a 3.833" bore size if the previous machine shop honed the bore to large to get the standard .030" over pistons. Or if the block needs to be re-honed you can get 3.835" pistons that with file fit rings should still be ok.

    Here is a compression ratio calculator that you can play with to see what your engine wants to get you to 11:1;

    http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php


    I get a lot of flack recommending those pistons here because of the price, but when the crappy junk "stock" replacement pistons are used in a sbb, that usually always leads to a disappointing running engine. Its like those people don't want the sbb engine to run worth a crap the way they recommend all the off the shelf junk parts available for these engines! Its like a conspiracy to keep these engine weak, its VERY irritating reading those people postings here, especially when other people take their advice and are disappointed with the results they get when their engine is together running weaker than before the rebuild! I have seen this happen with MANY sbb builds, that they just give up on the engine and install a 455 in their car because they listened to those build it to go slow posters! They're probably shills for Federal Mogul so they can sell there off the shelf Buick junk parts. If there was a less expensive customizable cast piston available I would recommend that, but there is not so I recommend what is available for the best bang for the buck.

    Seeing how you will need to have your rotating assembly re-balanced anyway and you want a bit more low end torque it wouldn't be that much more $$ if you think you want to get the above pistons anyway to make your engine a stroker to get an extra 15 to 17 more cubes from 350 if your bore size is at .030" over now.

    These rods would work great;

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/181969787105?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


    You just need to have them narrowed .055" from .900" to .845" all the material taken off of the non-chamfered side will make them work just right because sbb rods are offset and after those nascar take out rods are narrowed they will be offset just like the sbb rods that you throw away(or sell with the pistons that are on them now). Then when you order the above pistons, order them with the size wristpin the rods have, you can do that because the above pistons are made to order.

    You can probably get those rods if you make them an offer for $175, plus about $50 to have them narrowed, that and the crank stroking would cost about $200(plus or minus $50 depending on your local crank grinders pricing), so around $425 plus rod bearings to make it a stroker, if you want to since you're in it repairing it anyway. You'll never break one of those rods unless you lose oil pressure for a couple minutes at 8,000 RPM. And with those rods you could spin that fast with no worries about the rods anyway. Those rods are about 100 gram each lighter than the factory rods and the above pistons are around 2.8 lbs lighter for the set of 8 than the factory pistons are. If you have the 73 or newer crank you may even be able to have your rotating assembly internally balanced if you wanted to without having to add heavy metal to the crank if you wanted it balanced that way.

    If you wanted even more cubes you could have the block sonic tested to see what kind of over bore it can handle. If it can handle a .105" overbore with the crank stroke to 3.990"(if your crank isn't reground undersized already, if it is .010" under you can get to a 3.980" stroke, .020" a 3.970" stroke and so on...) with that bore and the max stroke you would have a sbb 383. The .105" over because there are good rings available at that size and that gets you to 383. You don't have to go that far but if you do decide to go with more bore just make sure there are good rings available at the size you decide to go with.
    Here is a good reference for that;

    https://www.summitracing.com/search...&SortOrder=Ascending&tw=rings&sw=Piston Rings

    Look for over sizes with multiple rings available for that size, scroll down on the left side of the page, there will be bore sizes, expand that and scroll down until you get to the over sizes you're interested in to see what rings are available for that size. You want at least the 1/16", 1/16", 3/16" ring pack for less frictional drag which will free up power vs. the old school 5/64", 5/64" 3/16" rings. The thinner the better, if you order the above pistons they will look for the best rings available for the size you order, if there is a better option that you see in the Summit link then you can ask why they aren't making the pistons for those? You probably don't want low tension rings for the street though so try not to look at those because you will need to run some sort of vacuum pump for the crankcase to suck the pressure out to run those.

    If you have any questions feel free to ask, I'm happy to help. GL




    Derek
     
  11. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    I believe the machinist said JE pistons. i take him the motor end of dec., he said he will check everything out and do all the measuring and calculating then i'll come in and we'll go over all my options. it's a family run shop thats been in business 40yrs and was recommended to me by the guy who builds all the top drag racing motors around here.

    but i will be asking your opinion on things before i make a final decision
    thanks, keith
     
  12. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    No problem, but just so you know the JE pistons are going to be expensive. Your guy might not know about the AutoTec pistons for the sbb 350? You might want to make him aware of them before you drop your parts off to him so he has time to see if he likes the option for you.

    They're a machine to order piston that takes 4 weeks to make, so around 5 weeks for delivery, I would suspect a custom JE will take around the same time as well so plan accordingly. The JE pistons will be made of forged 2618 aluminum which is a great race piston, not really necessary for a street build. The AutoTec pistons are made of forged 4032 aluminum, more scuff resistance and can be ran with tighter tolerances than the 2618 material, as well would have better longevity than the 2618 material. In other words, a better for the street piston choice that will cost less as well.

    11:1 would be no problem for the A/T pistons unless you plan on over a 200 HP shot of nitrous or you plan on more than 5 psi of boost. If you plan on using a big shot of nitrous or more than 5 psi of boost, then the JE forged 2618 aluminum piston is the way to go.GL




    Derek
     
  13. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    thanks, i'll tell him about the auto tec's, and yes i have been thinking about maybe a 100 shot
     
  14. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    i'm running the 2 groove water pump pulley off the v6 on the 350 and it is bent, will a chevy one fit? or where can i get one?

    thanks, keith
     
  15. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    dropped off motor at machine shop in albuquerque (edwards racing engines), asked him to check into the auto techs, we're shooting for 10to1 comp. probably be zero deck, will know more after he cc's combustion chambers.
    he said 10 1/2 to 1 is on the ragged edge at this alt. with 91 oct. fuel.

    so i'm needing opinions on what cam to run.
    10to1 comp., TA stage 1 intake, holley 750 dp, TA 1 5/8 headers, hei ign., th400 trans, 2500 stall conv., 3:23 posi.
    in a 1976 Skylark
    stock cast iron heads that i will just de-bur, waiting on alum. heads
    thanks, keith
     
  16. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

  17. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    For an off the shelf cam with that compression the TA-413 sounds like a good match for now. Although a custom roller would be a really nice addition, you wouldn't really be able to take much of advantage of one without a set of roller rockers so you could take advantage of a higher than .500" lifts the factory rockers are only good for.

    I think TA mentioned that the new heads will be machined to be able to use either shaft rockers or sbc stud mounted rockers, so you can wait to swap to a roller cam after you get the heads. Or if you have roller rockers already then a roller cam would be a really nice addition. PM me if you're on the fence getting a roller cam, I have some info that may sway your decision to get one. :TU:





    Derek
     
  18. partsrparts

    partsrparts Silver Level contributor

    that just gave me a headache! if i'm reading it correctly the cam and the SCR actually determines the DCR?

    i would really like to get a roller rocker and cam set up but finances are in control of this. i basically have to have the engine gone completely thru again because of bad choices (mainly mine!), live and learn! hopefully once the new heads are out and tested by everyone i'll have the cash.

    Another thing i realized today when looking at some paperwork is the TC i thought i have was a 2500 stall is actually only 1600-2000 stall, so should i be looking for a 2500 or ? stall converter?

    thanks, keith
     
  19. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Let me simplify it for you. The static compression ratio would equal the dynamic compression ratio if the intake valve closed at bottom dead center, the bottom end of the stroke. It doesn't. The intake valve always closes as the piston is on it's way up on the compression stroke. Since NO compression can be generated UNTIL the intake valve closes, dynamic compression varies with the intake valve closing point. The intake valve closing point will vary with different cams. Ever see a minimum static compression ratio in a cam description? The reason they specify a minimum static compression ratio is to get the dynamic compression in the proper range for pump gas with that cam, 7.5-8.4. So static compression isn't the only determining factor for whether the engine will run on pump gas.

    There is no such thing as a converter that will stall the same no matter what you put it behind. Engine torque, car weight, and gearing are factors that influence stall speed. Unless a converter was built for a specific combination, it may not stall where you need it to. The cam will determine what you need in a converter, so pick that first. If you have the engine dyno'd, that can also help a converter builder zero in on what you need. Jim Weise has some really nice 9.5" converters. I'd consult with him once you have all your numbers.

    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?147066-TSP-9-5-quot-Street-Strip-converters-Lifetime-warrantee!
     
  20. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    I vote for a TA 284 cam, 10:1 static compression with a slight dish in the piston at zero deck, and then when you swap the alum heads on you can get a good roller cam to match that... At this point it is impossible to order the right custom roller cam for the alum heads as we do not know how they will flow yet...

    That being said if you are still building the bottom end not I would do all that now and not buy the cam or do head work and just wait a few months till you can get the alum heads and do it all right the first time instead of doing it all now and then doing it all again with the alum heads...

    You are already re-doing it once, why not do it right the way you really want it this time... It may take longer but ti would be worth the wait... All TA has to do is machine the heads and then release them so its not like they are a long ways off.
     

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