My 455 engine recipe

I just built and dynoed the motor your talking about last Thursday/Friday... with these differences:

my 470 shortblock 10.6-1 compression
Hyd Roller version of the 413 from TA
SPX intake and the New XP Holley HP 1000 cfm
My competition ported Edelbrock 60049 heads.

With no intake cooling it went 600 torque/587 HP, with cold water on the intake it went 607TQ/591 HP

Tried two Q-jets, best either would do is 563 HP, using the same air and slightly more fuel than the Holley.

If you keep the compression about 10.5-1 flat tappet 413, your going to be in the 530-540 ish range, as long as you put one of those intensifier kits in the HEI.

600 will require a much bigger flat tappet cam, or higher compression, and in reality, some combination of both.

An E-85 combo like Dave built is a viable option, but your not going to get there on pump premo with your current build.

Our goal was 600/600, and to get there I would have needed a 238* roller cam, with the rest of my specs, but that is the max cam for street use in my opinion, and the tuning window gets much tighter, before driveablity problems can be an issue.

 

Where are you getting this info from? I have actually built a few brand X engines with these rods and one is still holding up to 7,000 sustained RPM at the sand dunes going on its 4th year of abuse in a solid roller engine that is right at the 600 HP level! The owner has taken those rods to 8,500 RPM a couple of times and didn't hurt them.(told him not to do that again though and to set the rev limiter to 7,500, LOL :shock Of coarse I swapped out the bolts for 8740 ARP bolts though, didn't want to chance using the unknown bolts they came with. And again there are other brands of 5.4L rods out there, BUT if they're import rods chances are they are made in the same hut as the Speedmaster rods that includes the Eagle rods that TA sells for $595.

The rods were within .0001" of being round and consistent diameter reading even after installing the ARP replacement bolts using a stretch gauge, not just torqueing them and calling them good. "keep in mind their 4340 material is inconsistent" You must have read this in a chat room somewhere on the interweb so it must be true. Sounds like rumors from people that are trying to sell $1,200 + rods(which for that price I'm sure they're REALLY nice but only necessary as an entry level all out race rod) uzzled:

Most people that claim what you are claiming have NEVER had any experience with the Speedmaster rods and are just trying to knock down an import brand thinking no one will call you out because they are imports trying to make yourself sound more experienced with the product line than you actually are.(consider yourself called out)

The sand dune engine has Speedmaster 4032 forged pistons & rings also, 4340 forged Speedmaster rods with a Ohio Crank brand forged crank, all import parts holding up to the abuse the Dart heads, FAST EZ EFI, Howards solid roller cam and lifters are throwing at them! :Brow: o No:

So don't knock something until you try it, trust me I had my doubts as well but now am a believer. If Scot hasn't broke a rod at the dunes yet, consider that a testament to their durability! If he ever manages to break one of them I will let everyone here on v8 know it. April 1st is opening day for the dunes, but he probably won't make it out there until Memorial weekend? He might take a Saturday off before then though, not sure? To date he has killed 3 powerglide transmissions, 3 TH350 transmissions and (2) 31 spline Ford 9" rear ends with that engine! :Brow: Hasn't managed to hurt the engine yet though, we shall soon see.

If I wasn't sure those rods could handle life in a 482 BBB I wouldn't of ever posted a link for them. Of coarse I do post "budget 482" when I post a link for those though, no guarantees if someone wants to use them for an all out race engine. Although swapping in a set of ARP2000 or ARP L-19 bolts might make them strong enough for that? For an engine that doesn't see past 6,000 RPM I would be tempted to try the bolts that come with the rods though. I believe a set of ARP 8740 bolts run around $80, for a set of the 5.4L rods that come with the ARP 8740 bolts are over $100 more than the Speedmaster rods that are on sale now.



Derek

 

I am ok with the power being in the 500-550 range. I need to know how the car handles the power so it would be a good 'trial' on the way to 600. When I have more money I might build it to a true 600/600 beast. That will require a good amount of more cash that I can't justify spending for a extra 50-75hp at this time. I am building it so I can reuse most of the expensive parts for the 600 build. The heads, intake, and headers mostly. The differences would be a better carb, roller cam and stroked rotating assembly. Are there any small tricks for getting a few extra horses out of a BBB? carb spacers, etc? Would a bigger cam then the 413 give more horses without rapping the tach up?

 

Derek, calm down bud.
I was attempting to give an opinion based on my observations and experience without bashing the product or the company.
I do use their products along with other import based ones.
I am not as brave with SOME of it as you are, I think they have their place.
Their company gets many castings/forgings etc. from the same supplier as many other manufacturers, some are better than others (not bashing).
I can assure you I have no agenda for or against any company or country.
I'll agree that the latest manufactured stuff is usually better than some of the past ones.
Like any other company, they've been burned by their source in the past.
Unfortunately the customer is often the first to see the failure trends happen.
Be aware that SOME ebay sellers are known to be unscrupulous in selling product lines with known defects.
If you buy enough stuff you'll figure out which ones they are.
I've had good luck buying straight from the manufacturer.

Unfortunately, I've sent more speed parts back than I've felt comfortable using.

I've personally hardness checked parts and taken various ones through the same inspection processes any OEM would do with a new product line.
I've also spoken to their "engineering rep" here in the US and have been made aware of what they feel are appropriate uses of their items.
My experiences with machining and the variations of the alloy "recipe" include implemented a tracking system of the heat codes for a high volume OEM's source of steel bar stock beyond the steel warehouses, going to the country of origin.
I've changed sfm's, d.o.c.'s, insert grades, chipbreaker shapes, coolant concentration, etc. in the automated robotic machining cells in order to cope with banding, hard spots, inclusions, and "other inconsistencies" (basically, the process engineering)...knowing full well there will be a new learning curve with the heat treat process, as well as some warranty problems dealt with by the manufacturers installing our products.
This was a years long ordeal, likely affecting ALL major manufacturers.
So I worry about material variances more than the next guy.

I've brought products to market using offshore suppliers.
I've also had several I wasn't comfortable working with.
In the past I have enjoyed working with foreign plant managers and engineers, they seem to really care about what they are doing.

Therefore, I maintain my humble opinion.

I think everyone knows that rods aren't really rated for hp, that's simply marketing suggesting an application.
One would have to find practical limits such as "how much G force can these take based on stroke/weight?" , "what happens when the throttle is shut at full rpm?"which as you know would be difficult to nail down a power level (Especially knowing that the compressive loads to the short block are not usually what causes failure).

Thanks for calling me out, this has been a pleasant derail. :Comp::beer

[Edit: I also have a 700hp (give or take) sbc with import rods out there. I don't think I'd do that again, even though it's maybe 7 years old.
I take more risks with my own stuff than for others]

 

Hello Larry. Have you ever run your car with a turbo 400, or 350 instead of the OD?? Seems like you should be around 122 mph with that power and weight.Just wondering if the Od kills that much ET and MPH.

 

Ahh, sounds good Larry.I was just curious in what you found out . Good luck this year.


Tommy.

 

I am looking at the chamber volume of the ede heads for the ported version and its saying 68cc. How much can you mill the deck on these heads?

 

I would rather use the expensive US stuff for customer builds as well, BUT hands get tied when the word "budget" is spoken!(would be so effing cool if I had the clientele that "money wasn't an object") The customer is made well aware of where the parts come from for that level build but want the savings anyway so that's how we get to know what those rods can handle so far and so far much much more than "just slightly better than stock". We're going to see how a set of Eagle rods are going to hold up to the 227 Dart CNC heads on a 434 CID sbc with a 4-7 swap solid roller engine shortly.(would of got the Speedmaster rods but the Eagle rods were offered with stroker clearance already machined in them and the customer was on board with the extra cost)

It sounds like your experience is more related to industrial engines more so than the performance stuff, you must work in that industry? Past import rods were not as good as they are today, I'm sure the process has been optimized by now(at least the QC anyway for the bigger companies that want to sell large quantities of those parts and keep selling them with the same name). But still I'm sure that the fully machined rejects do make it to possibly eBay from a fly by night seller, if you notice in the link I posted who the seller is, Speedmaster's own eBay store. Speedmaster was formerly Proform who has had problems years ago(around 10 to 15 years ago) with some of their products which has followed them long after that product line has been corrected(did a bit of research on who Seedmaster is before giving them an endorsement) changed their name to Speedmaster to try for a better reputation which I believe they're on the right track for that and have a good hookup for decent import parts for a substantial savings for the poor people like me can play in that sand box.


So what was relevant 10 years ago probably isn't as relevant today.



Derek

 

Zzing! wow :laugh::laugh:

I agree with your first paragraph. We are all in the same boat as far as budget and economy is concerned.
Don't lynch me because my opinion is different ray:

OK, I'll use an actual experience to illustrate how I view your position on the rods,
My 327 regularly spun 7800 rpm, with an occasional blip to 8500+...with stock rods. Oops.
Periodic inspection showed no issues with those rods, even after the block split.
Therefore I conclude that all stock rods are more than suitable for extreme performance applications, even with different strokes and piston weights (sarcasm).
It isn't likely that I had a "good" set, they all should be similar (sarcasm).
If you claim to have different experiences with things, I'll call you out and say you haven't used them yet (sarcasm).
If you attempt to show why you feel qualified to have your opinion, I'm going to assume what you do for a living is diminished...so I can elevate myself (sarcasm).
(Thinks to self, hmmm...I've read that he's a toolmaker, he must make hammers or chisels!)
(Also sarcasm, I know you are a very good machinist and engine builder Derek).

Are you confusing Proform and Procomp?
Last I knew, Procomp Electronics sells as Speedmaster. My account with them hasn't changed. Both from Rialto, right? Australian origins?
Professional products seems to have the same intake manifolds, even with a similar part# cast into them.
The only real difference I've seen visually is that the first digit of the part # is different.
Proform markets more for the external accessories of engines market, right?

The whole point of my off topic tale on material inconsistency was to point out that there are only so many plants in the world that create steel.
It would be reasonable to assume that the better stuff is kept for military purposes or applications in which people might die.
This has nothing to do with the comment that "in general, Chinese sourced aftermarket parts are getting better...
They are, and I agree with that, but not for the reasons I previously commented on.

Machinists know that 4340 work hardens, even from the tooling hanging onto a chip, the cutting insert's substrate beginning to fail, the coolant being misdirected for just a moment from a chip, etc. etc.
When the bar stock itself starts out with inclusions, hard spots, etc., before being pounded into shape or subject to assembly line style machining rigors...the end result is material inconsistency.
4340 can have a range like this in the recipe [~~~~~~~~~~holds up hands this wide for fish story~~~~~~~~~~] and still be called 4340.
As a manufacturer, YOUR 4340 might be a fingertip pinch held anywhere within the above range.
This affects the end result. The process isn't likely to change based on what the machinists see on the production floor.
If you do not agree, then hardness check or otherwise analyze hundreds of rods (or other 4340 parts) to prove a point.
I've seen each part # near 100k part counts per year.

One of the Co's I worked with had a 45+ year history with highly stressed drive line components, in fact created most of them.
We even made billet I-beam rods that were for some kind of high rpm Honda application.

As far as information being recent or relevant....I was told that any of a certain tubing used (at that time) was originally made for WWII, and that it was stockpiled in huge quantities.
That unverified anecdote came from a defense contractor, machining very large weapons.
The alloy was slightly different after that, supposedly.
I remember seeing things in the 80's made from that stuff, supposedly.
They could be wrong, it doesn't affect my life any.

I still have several sets of import rods going into engines, I don't hate them.

Therefore, I maintain my opinion.
You don't have to agree. :beer

 

Some of these companies don't do ANY R&D.
I'm intentionally NOT dropping names here.
They only sell them.
They are playing a #'s game.
Some of them buy the semi-finished pieces and finish machine them.
I trust those a bit better.

I believe we did concur that the stock rod bolts needing scrutiny.
The reason I commented about "checking things closely" with ARP bolts is that there has been a past history of fakes installed.
You demonstrated what needs to be checked with EVERY rod, stretch and out of round.
It would be wise to put a bit of push on any bushing to "check" the press fit while you are there.

I'm not sure how else to classify the entry level rods other than "better than stock".
They indeed are better, and fit many applications once the obstacles of dimensions are dealt with (creative machining).
I don't believe they are better than premium top shelf products, so I can't say that...

The other point of the material origin anecdote is that even USA manufacturers making premium top shelf products have to deal with the SAME things.
Even MAJOR OEM's cannot fully control the origin of their material. US steel houses do not sell 100% US steel.

 

Hi Larry I had a question about the 308s cam how streetable is that cam I just bought it and everything I need to make it work , except I haven't decided on a converter yet or my gears yet. I have a turbo 400 and the rearend is a 2.73 posi. I know I will have to get a vaccum pump.

 

You gonna have to rid of those 2.73s,...that cam will need a minimum of 373s

 

What do u think I will have for power