My 455 engine recipe

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by JayZee88, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    Yes it was Gary.

    Dyno session was a breeze on that one.. in by 12:30, I was on the way home at 3:30. When a block girdle motor does not leak a drop, it's a good day.

    Yes, to use a lifter bore girdle to max effectiveness with an SPX intake, takes a little out of the box thinking.. and a grinder.. :)

    JW
     
  2. JayZee88

    JayZee88 Well-Known Member

    thank you guys. I am going to do more research before I make any purchases. I have alot to soak in :TU:
     
  3. JayZee88

    JayZee88 Well-Known Member

    After thinking it through I figured out a game plan. Since the shortblock work has been I am going to use the factory connecting rods, and replace the hypers with TAs notched forged pistons (factory style). The connecting rods need ARP bolts, and im debating about ARP main bolts to (necessary?). CNC ported Ede heads with all the good stuff, TA oil mods, SP1 intake, 1 inch 4 hole carb spacer, 413 cam, factory 800 CFM Qjet, HEI distributor, double roller timing set, and refurbished long tube headers I got for free. Using what I have, and making it work while saving money. Win-Win :Brow:
     
  4. gsx678

    gsx678 Well-Known Member

    If you don't have the cam already give Scott Brown a call.
    He will grind you a true custom cam made for the rest of your build for about the same price as an off the shelf cam.
    I run one and lots and lots of other Buick guys run them.
    My stuff is listed in my signature with a youtube video.
    Check him out.
    www.buyracingparts.com
     
  5. JayZee88

    JayZee88 Well-Known Member

    I am getting my ede heads from them, and would love a custom cam to boot! The idle sound of your Skylark is awesome! I have to be rather picky about my exhaust tone, because of a previous experience with loud exhaust. Right after high school I got a great deal on a very rare 59 Buick with the factory manual transmission. I bought it and thought it needed more street cred. Off I go to the exhaust shop and tell them to put true duals with long smittys glasspacks on it (thinking just a little louder and little more power over the stock single pipe). It was much, much louder and I didn't take into account I had no interior. The exhaust was deafening inside the car. Fun part was driving downtown along side pizza cutter cars with the only thing you can hear is my exhaust echoing off the brick buildings. Good times :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  6. TomGS72

    TomGS72 Silver Level contributor


    A roller cam is not needed for 600 HP. I'm in the 700 range and running a TA solid (TA 308S). VERY few people will even consider a roller under 750 HP due to cost.

    Definately buy forged pistons. Do not go above 500 HP without forged.
     
  7. Bluzilla

    Bluzilla a.k.a. "THE DOCTOR"

    I have to agree that a roller cam is not ncessary to reach 600HP (though there would nothing wrong if you wanted to spend the money on one). I like the T/A 308s also as I have been using that cam in various builds for over 20 years and it will easily make 600HP with the right combination.... just watch the compression if you are a pump fuel guy.

    Larry
     
  8. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    No doubt a 308 can reach and surpass 600, but don't forget the OP was asking about a street bound engine with Vacuum, a moderate idle, pump gas, and what I assume low maintenance. And that makes 600 very hard to do on a reasonable budget, while I myself have never had a roller and don't forsee one in the foreseeable future for me, I can see where the proven 20+ hp it provides would help very much in reaching high 500's+ in a street friendly engine
     
  9. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    This is directed to the OP, JayZee88. What kind of experience have you had with "higher" HP engines? I'm just wondering what other high performance engines you've had, particularly in Buicks? The reason I say this is because if you haven't had experience with these kinds of engines you may be in for a big letdown once you actually have to drive one. I'm sure someone will get on here and say they drive their 413 all over the place or even better their 608S is a daily driver and there is no problem. They probably grew into the experience of driving with bigger cams and "cranky" engines so it slowly crept on them as they progressed through various engines and they have been doing it for years.

    You can run into a problem if you are used to driving a stock 455, especially in a big Electra, and then go head first into the deep end with a high HP engine. A 413 is getting pretty close to the maximum cam for good power brakes so if the winds don't blow right your brakes may be a little iffy at times especially when the engine is cold. Another problem is the higher the HP the better it has to breath and no matter what anybody tells you it is going to be louder than a stock engine. About the best system you can get is a pair of 2.5" Walker Dynomax long case mufflers which are fairly quiet compared to most but compared to a stock 455 with resonators they are way more noticeable(No way like a pair of glasspacks though.). Again, you get used to it but it is there.

    You never really said what you wanted to do with the Electra once you have the engine in. Low ET's, occasional trip to the track, cruise nights, shows only, HP bragging rights? As the cams gets bigger the converter stall needs to go up because big cams and automatic transmissions mean a bigger drop into gear from idle rpm so the old stock 455 drop it into gear and glide away from the stop sign won't be quite what you may be used to.

    You may be used to all the idiosyncrasies of driving a higher HP power vehicle so the point may be moot. I'm not trying to scare you off but I just wanted to get it out there.

    Others may have more experience with this but I'm not sure how well the long tube headers will fit the Electra. Maybe ask on the Big Boat thread area.
     
    patwhac likes this.
  10. Bluzilla

    Bluzilla a.k.a. "THE DOCTOR"

    Good Point!
     
  11. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    2 things..

    So your going to leave the pistons .050+ in the hole? Not a good idea. The Budget Forged TRW style pistons will leave you there.. consider upgrading to the 1611 series SRP piston I know that Mike raised the compression height on them here recently, so they should be closer to the deck now on stock builds.

    Or talk to Bobb/Scott and have them set you up with the correct custom piston for your build. They deal with the budget auto-tec line of pistons that will work for you.

    Roller cams...

    It is true, back in the day that no one really went to a solid roller till you wanted to make big power. But with the advent of the hyd roller core, many folks opt for it now, because it is "free" power. I have documented that a roller grind is 20-30 numbers stronger than the same flat tappet grind, while providing better driveability.

    It's an important tool in the box for higher hp street engines, where you want to keep the .050 overlap less than 20*.

    In my business here, flat tappet cams going in fresh builds is getting kind of rare, although I do spec out, sell and test install them for customers on a fairly regular basis. Of the 9 street engines currently on the books or going together in the shop, only 2 of them have flat tappet cams.

    Whoever you buy a cam from, have someone degree it in. Indexing variations from cam grinders is the biggest issue out there with buying a cam, and it's much more important than lifter type, or subtle changes in lobe profiles.

    JW
     
  12. JayZee88

    JayZee88 Well-Known Member

    I have never owned a high performance car (unless you include a supercharged 97 Rivy), but I am familiar with how cammed, high revving muscle cars drive. The motor is being built mainly for hp bragging and cruises. Custom pistons can be pricey, and since the block work is done I am looking for pistons that don't require a rebore (its a 30 over bore). How do I get in contact with Bob about custom pistons? I am gussing without pistons sitting higher in the block I will have vacuum issues?
     
  13. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    What Mike is trying to tell you is that there are trade offs made when you modify an engine. The faster you can spin an engine, the more HP it will make, if and this is a BIG IF, it can breathe at that higher RPM. That is the reason for camming an engine. Holding the valves open longer lets the engine breathe at higher RPM where it can make more HP. The HP you gain comes at the expense of smooth idle, and low end power. How much you lose or gain is dependent on the cam and how big it is. It also depends on the size of the engine. The same cam will behave very different in a small block than it would in a big block. It would be milder in the big block. Again, depending on how big the cam is, it might need a higher stall converter and numerically larger gears to get the engine into it's power range quicker. That's why head porting is so very important. The better your heads, the less cam you need to get the same power, and a smaller cam behaves better on the street in real world driving. After you are done bragging and cruising your car around, it might get old kind of fast when you have to deal with the drive ability issues caused by a cam that is too big.

    Forged pistons require a bit more clearance in the bore because they expand more than cast pistons as they heat up. You get 30 over forged pistons and let the machine shop worry about fitting them.

    You want the pistons to sit higher in the block (have less deck clearance) because it makes the engine more efficient and it has more resistance to detonation. Ideally, you want 0 deck where the pistons are even with the deck at TDC. This also makes it easier to achieve your desired compression ratio without excessive milling of the block and/or heads which can create other problems. You need to read this,

    http://www.trishieldperformance.com/470--what-and-why-.html

    It explains why you want 0 deck.

    We all know the braggers at car cruises. I always ask them for a time slip. Most can't produce one. Bottom line, I'd rather have a car I can drive anywhere, under any conditions, that produces excellent performance. Performance I can prove without risking street racing. When I get challenged to a street race, I just show them my best time slip. I tell them, you got one with a better E.T. If so, you win.
     
  14. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    They way pistons are made nowadays is the piston clearance is built into the piston, so if the piston need .005" clearance for an advertised .030" overbore(say for a 4" bore) the piston would measure 4.025" to fit in a .030" over bored cylinder.

    The CID is measured by the bore diameter, that's why I think they standardized to this method of manufacturing pistons. :TU:

    I love the time slip thing Larry, cool!




    Derek
     
  15. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Good to know. So the OP just has to buy 30 over forged pistons. I think you should set him up with some Auto tecs that will get him to 0 deck.

    Yeah, the time slip thing is much safer:laugh: I tell them I like my life the way it is and I really wanna keep my car.:TU:
     
  16. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    When you specify a custom piston, you would measure your exact bore size, and have them build the pistons for that.

    A correctly ordered custom piston will fit right in the bore, and will require no machine work in your case, as long as all 8 holes are a consistent size.

    While the pistons are more expensive vs the TRW stock replacements, once you factor in the the fact that those TRW pistons come out of the box all different sizes, and the bores have to be fit to each one, the overall cost is actually more to use the "cheaper piston".. and this is not even addressing the deck height issues.

    Hi quality pistons like the TA SRP and my Diamond pistons come out of the box all the same size. I assume this would be true of the Auto-tec piston also.

    The guys you talked to about the CNC'ed edebrock's can set you up with those Auto-tec pistons, that will fit right into your block, assuming all the holes currently are the same size.

    I know it sounds crazy, but often times "more expensive" parts end up costing less.

    Right now, since I assume the shortblock is together, you could pop the pistons and rods out, and just install the new ones and be done with it, vs taking the whole thing apart again.. which will cost a lot more..

    But before you do that, first things first.. have the bores measured, to see if this is even an option.
     
  17. JayZee88

    JayZee88 Well-Known Member

    Thank You for the help guys. I appreciate it!:beer I am working on my list of parts and short of a major unexpected cost I should be able to build my 462 (to 600 hp hopefully) for less the $8,000 (minus cost of shortblock assembly). My neighbor put that in his 454 powered 69 Camaro just to get 500!
     
  18. Buickrat1

    Buickrat1 Well-Known Member

    Here is a couple combinations that will get you there or get you close.

    482 cubic inch BBB made 621 HP/ 626 Torque NO ROLLER CAM just a flat tappet solid .550 lift with 238/248 duration at .050 ground on 116 LSA

    73 Block, NO GIRDLE, Stock crank offset ground to a 2.100 Rod Journal'
    Diamond Flat top .038 Pistons with BBC 6.8 Rods
    Ported TA Stage 2 SE heads with 2" headers

    462 BBB that made 585 HP/ 588 Torque with a flat tappet hydraulic cam .540 Lift with 230/240 duration at .050 ground on 116 LSA
    71 Block 4.320 Bore NO GIRDLE, Stock Crank offset ground to a 2.20 rod journal
    Diamond Pistons with 6.800 BBC Rods
    Ported TA Stage 1 SE heads and a set of Gessler ported exhaust manifolds,

    Dynoed these two engines last December, both engines idled at 800 rpm made 15" vacuum and pulled hard to 6000 Rpm.
     
  19. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    compression ratio on both Dave?

    JW
     
  20. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    Hold the presses JayZee, if this engine runs on pump gas(and if it doesn't then it shouldn't have been mentioned here) then stop thinking about whatever you are thinking about doing and make arrangements to have whoever built that engine build you that same engine if they will do it. Depending on how much you want to spend I really don't see how you can do better. Exhaust manifolds(fit the car better), 800 rpm idle, 15" vacuum. Maybe the Q-Jet would knock a few ponies out of it but it would be tough to beat. You can either sell off what you have or ship them what you have and then they can use it in the build. I know I wouldn't make a move until I heard more info on having one built.
     

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