Well I have finally begun fabrication on my EFI manifold for my 430. I have been collecting parts over the past few years and I finally started actually fabricating. So far it has only been cutting the raw fuel rail stock to length and tapping the ends for -10AN o-ring fittings(7/8-14 tap), but it's a start. One thing that kicked me off on this build was figuring out something about the injector angle. If the injectors are drilled straight down into the manifold as normally done(especially in the SPX manifold bosses) then the fuel spray is aimed directly at the head intake runner floor just a tad inside from the manifold flange. I took some measurements and I will be laying mine over more so that they are aimed directly at the intake valve. I plan on grinding my own drill bit(s) for making the injector holes. We'll see how that goes. Here's a list of what will be going into this setup: -TA SPX manifold: http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1206 -Ross Machine Racing -10 fuel rail extrusion: http://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash10.html -Aeromotive A1000 fuel pressure regulator: http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/products.php?prod=11 -Various fuel fittings, all AN type: -10 for feed, -8 for return -Custom built throttle body elbow made from welded aluminum plate -Dual blade throttle body from a ford 460ci truck engine -Accel 24lb/hr fuel injectors(I just had these laying around, they'll need to be upgraded to support any more power that what stock heads/cam can provide) -Walbro 255lph intank fuel pump: http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/fppumps.html -Megasquirt I w/ v2.2 board for fuel and ignition control -Modified stock points distributor with pick-up coil and remote mounted 8-pin GM HEI module and coil to allow megasquirt to control timing Here are some pictures so far of the fuel rail. I'll add more pictures as the work progresses.
I'm pretty sure I have some 30 lb stock GN injectors here if you want them. I can get you a killer deal on 60# high impedance injectors(Motrons) as well. Love to see EFI swaps:TU:
Hmm...may have to hit you up on them...I was just planning on cranking up the fuel pressure for a while but that's not exactly ideal...
Another megasquirter! After doing some hw and posting a small question to Hot Rod that got published into a 3 page answer. The injector angle shouldn't mean much unless your dialing in for .01s of a second. I'm kinda wishing I went with the SPX intake but I didn't and it seems to be working well now. why did you choose version 1 of the megasquirt chip? yea your going to need bigger injectors. EDIT2: also note that the injectors arn't spraying into the runner wall, half of the injector (if it has a wide spray pattern) will actually spray on the back of the valve if i recall correctly. If you look streight down into a head when it's bolted to an engine. and eye where the injector will spray you'll see it. Being batch fired (non sequencial injection) you would just spray against the back of the valve anyway in those times when it's firing as the valve is closed. are you running open or closed loop?
Hey, I didn't know your 455 EFI build was lurking around here. Very nice! And EDIS waste spark too! I've thought about doing that as well but I'm just going to start off with the distributor/8-pin HEI for now so I don't have to add extra hardware(more coils and a crank trigger). How do you like the coil pack setup? What wireset did you use? A custom made up set? I started using megasquirt back when the newest thing was MS-I v2.2. I bought one kit a built it up and put it on my turbocharged V6 camaro. Then I built up a second one for ignition control(also a MS-I v2.2). MS-II was fairly new when I built the second one and the extra cost wasn't worth it as far as the features it offered. There was no MS-II-extra code at that time. So, to answer your question...I have an extra one so I'm using it and it'll do everything I want it to do. I could always use the Ford style idle valve if I end up needing one. Which issue of Hot Rod was that in? I'll have to look for it. Yea...I think I've heard mixed things about injector angle. At this point I think I'm just going to go ahead and angle them. I already modeled it in CAD to check clearences and such plus I like the slighty more compact look it gives it(fuel rails tucked in more). It just seemed to me that the main part of the stream aimed straight down didn't seem too ideal. Plus, in the future once megasquirt progresses I may decide to add a cam sensor and go sequential. And I'll be a step a head with the angled injectors. Plus it'll be different! Did you have any issue with the relativly long pathway through the roof of the intake runner that the fuel has to pass through before it gets to the runner? Does it look like some of the fuel patter would get sprayed against the ID of the injector bore before it gets to the runner? I was thinking about opening that hole up larger on the bottom side to avoid this. One thing I'm a little conserned about with the SPX is the power curve. I'm not sure if EFI negates TA's claim that it's a 4000-6500 power range manifold. You wouldn't have a fuel dropping out issue but I'm wondering if runner length and pressure pulses would still have a play as to where it would make power. I'm not building a screamer motor here. Yea...bigger injectors...I'll just be careful during the "proof-of-concept". I'll be watching things with a Innovate LC-1 wideband to make sure I'm doing ok. I expect with stock 430 heads and cam to be bouncing off of 85-90% duty cycle by 5500rpm and maybe a 13:1 air:fuel ratio. On my turbo camaro I run open loop most of the time. I get it dialed in and tuned using the megalog viewer and the VE analizer, but since the targeting table is only 8x8 I usually don't run it, especially since I have a lot wider of a MAP range than a naturally aspirated engine. But maybe I will on the 430. Also, as for plenums, the plenum I plan on building is right around 56% of the volume of 430in^3. The is not including the plenum that's already in the SPX manifold. I've read differing ideas on EFI plenum volume, ranging from 50-70% of the engine displacement. I may go to a 455 in the future so I'm trying to decide if I should bump the volume of the plenum up some before I get to building it.
I've been running 36# injectors on my SP-1 for about 9 years now, and it works great. Why are you thinking of an SP-X? 24# injectors are too small! My 36# are acceptable, I max out at about 85% DC. I'd even prefer a little more cushion however. How will you install the in-tank pump? I've wanted to do that for years, and I recommend it (since the external pumps don't seem to last more than a couple of years at best). I think you need a 5-1/4" opening in the top of the tank to install the in-tank pump. Will you install any baffling? -Bob C.
I should also mention I was planning on bumping fuel pressure up to 55-60psi which will make those 24#ers more like 28. I still agree they're too small though. But it's an easy swap once things are running. Someone on here was running even smaller ones(like 17 or so) but obviously it wasn't wanting to go much past 4500rpm or so. I'm running the SPX because I already have one. I originally picked it up because I was attracted to the pre-cast bungs. This EFI motor is actually going into a '83 camaro I have. So putting the pump in that one shouldn't be a problem. My Riviera does already have an electric intake pump though. But I don't know about trying to fit a larger one in there...
I have less than 10 miles on my build. torque converter problems. And I have a TON of tuning to do. it's running WAY too rich but it idles pretty good. However the EDIS is SWEET!. It's a ford controlled unit but changed it over to use GM coil packs. It is rock stable. I also relocated the timing mark where it's not buried under the accessories. Since I'm using the GN serpentine setup and pulleys the crank pulley I had modified at a machine shop to add the 36 slots right on the pulley I then mounted it to the crank while it was at TDC counted the few teeth I needed to jump (think it 6 teeth or so and then removed the final tooth. The crank sensor bracket bolts to the botom of the water pump and is plenty ridgid, and the crank sensor is from a Ford v6. I love having a timing map that I can adjust as well. I had problems trying to get it to idle as it was idling right at one of the jump on the timing map programmed where it was jumping from 15-17* up to 24*. It was revolving right around that area watching the point move around. I flattened that area out on the timing map and it smoothed out nicely. oh the hotrod was from April of 2007 wow that was awhile ago. the cover has a yellow dune buggy in the top right corner a red mustang that was digitally painted. on the right center and the bottom left is a blue something. it's the paint & body issue where they paint the f-bomb camaro. it's in the Pit Stop. page 132. EDIT: i can scan it for you if you'd like.
Very cool integration of the EDIS. I was actually running EDIS on my V6 camaro with megasquirt before I figured out how to get my stock GM DIS to work with it. I used my stock GM coil packs too(very simular to your coils). I basically just gutted one of my stock ignition control modules(ICM) that had burned up and used it just to pass wires through from the connectors on the ICM and wired to the appropriate coil pack terminal. Worked pretty well. So if one ran the EDIS or other DIS ignition system, couldn't you use a distributor to give a tach signal? Such as a magnetic pickup with only one tooth on the wheel that corrisponded to #1 TDC? It might not be the most accurate thing in the world but I would think it would work. Yea, sounds like your ignition map was "hunting" and falling into adjacent bins that were substantially higher than others at idle. I usually try to smooth mine out fairly well. I'd love to take a look at your ignition map if you wouldn't mind posting it. Did you basically just follow a "mechanical" and "vacuum" advance skeme? Such as for each MAP row you increased advance as RPM increased? I know a lot of the distributor tuners on this site try to set up their springs and weights to have full advance in by 2500rpm or so. I also usually add in more advance around the 2500-3500rpm and 50-70kPa range(or whatever ranges your engine sits at on the highway) to simulate vacuum advance while cruising. Have you thought about doing anything different from that? Since with electronic control you aren't hindered by worrying about what your "initial" is set to since you can have the advance anything you want at any condition. Please scan that writeup if you can. I didn't start my Hot Rod subscription till I think 2008.
This is exactly what I had done. My coil packs are from a Caddy with a Northstar engine. opened up the cover where it's computer circuits were and out the door they went. Figured the internal pin out and spliced into the factory recepticles with my new harness. Exactly it was hunting. It was really neat watching the point move around and at first I was messing with VE table and making no improvement. went to the timing table and found out what was going on. I just ran the all in at 2500 rpm or so. But like I said I've got less than 10 miles on the build, just having torque converter issues and I'm waiting on that. I'm actually looking for help on tuning it further as I think I messed up the tune adjusting some primal settings. (it was before christmas so I forgot what setting) but it changed my entire fuel mapping.:blast:I think it went so rich it soaked the O2 sensor and then it thought it was running lean. I have been thinking on putting a bump up to simulate vacuum advance while cruzing as you've mentioned.
Thanks for posting that article. Very informative. I had never given any thought to the distance up the runner from the valve that an injector can be located. Do you think you scaled the VE table? I know there's a setting that scales it where it just multiples all the bins by a scaling factor. I'd be happy to help in any way I can with tuning advice. I can't say I have much experience tuning a BBB but I've been messing around with megasquirt/megatune, etc on my camaro for almost 5 years now. Well I've progressed a little further. The fuel rails are tapped and even specially counter-sunk for the -10 o-ring AN fittings. I also ground my own drill for the injector holes that will be in the fuel rail. I basically took my Harbor Freight micro-mill and put a 5/8" drill in the collet then bolted/strapped my regular hand-held angle grinder down to the x-y table and ground it to my specs. It actually came out really well! I was surprised... :eek2: I had to do some finishing work with a dremel to grind some reliefs in it at each step but it sails through a test block of aluminum and fits the injector really well. So for the cost of a $10 drill bit I didn't have to buy one of these to make nice injector holes: http://www.rossmachineracing.com/injectortool.html This definitely wasn't original thought on my part. I saw it on this post: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/fuel-injector-drill-bit-125109.html Look at post #4 and #7. I have a left over 7" long piece of rail I tapped just for the heck of it. I think I'll try drilling the injector holes for two adjacent ports onto it first and see how it fits. I'll have to grind a second drill bit to do the holes in the manifold. Moving along...
Here are some pictures of the drill grinding setup, the ground drill and the practice rail with two mounted injectors.
Those injectors with a hotwired 340 pump can flow enough fuel to support about 540 hp (based on a BSFC of 0.5). But you will have to run around 87 psi and run the injectors static. The attached chart shows a graph of both the manufacturer-supplied performance curve of a Walbro 340 at 13.5 volts and the flow-vs-pressure characteristic of 8 24 #/hr injectors. At 100% injector duty cycle, given no other constraints on fuel pressure (i.e. remove the regulator and hook the pump directly to the injectors), fuel supply flow matches fuel demand at around 45 gph total and 87 psi. 80 an 90% dc curves are also given. Even at 80% dc and 94 psi, fuel flow is enough to support about 450 hp. I realize those are some super high pressures, but those are the maximums available given the combination that was stated.
Well the regulator I'm going to use goes up to 70psi. I will just upgrade the injectors rather than trying to deal with an un-regulated fuel pressure and trying to fight fuel table tuning with a non-constant flowing injector. But does anyone really think an original heads and cam 430 will push more than 400hp? I'm thinking not given the original 360hp rating, even though that is an old school rating. Based on a 0.5 BSFC, 400hp would be a 29lb/hr injector at 85% duty cycle. 24lb/hr injectors running at 65psi should give that. I'm just going to try that and if I can't get past 5000 rpm without going over 90%DC while trying to maintain ~13:1 air/fuel ratio then I'll get larger injectors. Unless a better deal comes along before then :Brow: But thanks for the graph! :TU: Have you run GNs without a regulator before? And is that 340 pump a 340 lph capacity?
My previous post was unclear and misleading, sorry for that. What I meant to say was that the unregulated scenario was just for purposes of determining maximum flow rate and pressure - the system will set up an operating point all on its own (and unregulated as you pointed out). But, if you re-introduce the regulator as it is supposed to be, now you have an idea of how much you can increase it. It won't go above the max point. I guess you could also arrive at the same max answer by just cranking up the regulator until it stops increasing. That is what I was intending to get across. So if you crank your reg to say 70 psi, from the graph 85% dc is 34 gph or roughly 400 hp. No, my GN has a reg like everyone else. The Walbro 340 is rated 255 lph at 45 psi.
Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. So as for a "hot-wired" pump, does that simply mean a larger gauge wire is run back to the pump to assure full voltage gets to the pump? What gauge wire is used? I was already planning on the 255lph walbro. Do you have any experience with the "high pressure" version? It seems to flow a little more than the non-high pressure 255lph version at higher pressures. Is this in exchange for pump life? Also, I have a dual inlet regulator going on this car(two -10AN inlets and one -6AN return). I was planning on putting a Tee on the supply line that splits to the two rails and then on the other end of the rails I was going to feed each end into the individual inlets of the regulator. Is there much of an advantage to this over a more "inline" setup where you'd feed the line to one rail, connect a crossover to the end of the first rail to the second rail and then feed the output of the second into one inlet of the regulator and plug the other inlet? I would think the way I was planning would give a more consistant rail pressure across all injectors?
The Spectra Premium - Classic Inj. Fuel Tank offers the in-tank pump, fully equipped with baffles ready to install: http://prod.spectra-ssl.com/PROD/ap...ct_code=GM34QFI&splash=false&APP_VERS=1.07.01 Got my tank through Tamraz's Parts Discount Warehouse in Plainfield, IL
