Matching Numbers. What does it mean to you?

Discussion in 'The "Paper Trail"' started by Marco, Jun 5, 2003.

  1. Dan Healey

    Dan Healey Well-Known Member

    Hidden, everywhere...

    But the most common date is on the Fisher tag on the firewall, middle left side of the plate. Jan is "01", Feb is "02", etc... Then a letter follows "A" 1st week, "B" 2nd week, etc.... :bglasses:
     
  2. buickx

    buickx Well-Known Member

    I think if you are about to spend big bucks..... checking the date code on the body is very important... avoids buying rebodied cars.. also date code on glass.
     
  3. Eric B

    Eric B John 3:16

    If I have to replace rear quarters and maybe the floor and get the sheet metal from a donor body how do I preserve the original date codes. Also if I replace the doors and front fenders from a donor car. Seems like this would affect the value of the car even if done right.
     
  4. Ken Mild

    Ken Mild King of 18 Year Resto's

    Just playing devil's advocate here. I've done an incredible amount of thinking about this whole numbers thing and what it "really" means.

    In my opinion, life is WAY too short to even begin to worry about date codes on sheet metal. Is it really worth all the heartache and grief to you to be concerned about this kind of detail? Some of these date codes are gone from sight once you fix the pieces to the car. I don't want to offend anyone. That's not my intention here. It's just that it almost seems obsessive compulsive in a way. Especially if it doesn't do much for the value of your car.

    Even Barrett Jackson isn't really going to worry much about date codes on sheet metal. Carbs, distributors, "maybe", but even then, it's not really going to detract very much if the car's numbers match on "key" components, engine, trans, rear etc..

    Don't over estimate how much a date code on a fender is worth. It's probably worth more to you than it is to anyone else.

    Just my opinion of course. :Smarty: :grin:
     
  5. Eric B

    Eric B John 3:16

    Thanks Ken. I am of the same opinion. The reason for my concern is that I have a "big buck car" that probably requires new quarters, maybe more, and I don't want to make an unnecessary mistake when replacing the sheet metal. Of course I would rather have a rust free door or fender then one that has been repaired and has the correct date code. Since I am not an expert in the field I appreciate the opinion of those who support this forum. Thanks again.
     
  6. buickx

    buickx Well-Known Member

    The concern wouldn't be with replacing doors,fenders,floor pan, but with reboding a car and transfering the vin...
     
  7. Mr Big

    Mr Big Silver Level contributor

    Fix the car like your gonna get stuck with it or going to keep it forever.
    Then enjoy it!

    I think we all put to much thought into a cars presumed value. Jusmy2cents :TU:
     
  8. Dan Healey

    Dan Healey Well-Known Member

    Yep!

    "I think we all put to much thought into a cars presumed value. Jusmy2cents"

    The market could very easily tilt the other way, and we couldn't give some of these away. :Smarty:
     
  9. Nicholas Sloop

    Nicholas Sloop '08 GS Nats BSA runner up

    You can not preserve the original date codes. That is why originality is worth so much $, (to those who care).
    It WILL affect the value of the car (to those who care) even if done right. No way around it. What you have will never quite equal a car that never needed work done in the first place (to those who care.)
     
  10. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member

    Amen, Mike. This whole "is the bolt the right color" thing is where I parted company with the Corvette guys, and here's why:

    Back when I was a supervisor on the final line at Flint we used to have to install all the bolts across the front of the truck (fender nose bolts, across the rad support etc). We were SUPPOSED to use some black bolts, made by Ferndale Co, but they would crossthread unless you were really careful. What did we do? We snuck across to Line 2, stole their "Lang Manufacturing" bolts (which were gray cadmium), which didn't crossthread, and ran them all night. At the end of the shift we would lock them in our lockers, wash our hands, and then fill in the shift log complaining about how first shift was "running junk" and filling the yard with repair!

    My point: I doubt the boys in St Louis were any more disciplined then we were... :Smarty:

    Additional thought: so how come the black bolts crossthreaded all the time and the gray ones didn't? Beats me... :Do No:
     
  11. Carl Rychlik

    Carl Rychlik Let Buick Light Your Fire

    I think there is nothing wrong with someone who goes all out and really tries to make his car as close to original as possible.To have a numbers matching car is icing on the cake, and it is reassuring to see a car appreciate in value because of this.

    Is it wrong to have a car that is not numbers matching? No. Not if you are concerned putting the car into show competition,but if you are,it does make a difference,especially to the judges.
     
  12. Da Torquester.

    Da Torquester. Platinum Level Contributor

    Still #s matching, but decked.

    I've had my 71 GS 455 for about 21 yrs. I did notice when I had the block decked the two lettered code on the drivers side deck was gone. I did get a picture of it before hand though. Also I did noticed the Vin # is stamped on the front of the driver's side head behind the power steering pump. Regardless, it's still the original engine that came with the car from the factory. And....I'm sure there are many GS cars out there with #s matching motors that have had their #'s milled off the deck during an engine rebuilding process. The #s might not be there anymore, but it's still the original engine that came with the car. Just my .02 John. :)
     
  13. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

  14. Keith Seymore

    Keith Seymore Well-Known Member

    As a sidebar, isn't it funny the things we remember? :confused:

    That was 27 years ago and I remember that bolt part number was "3846202"....

    I can't remember my own kids birthdays but I can remember that stinkin' part number :grin: :grin:
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member


    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
     
  16. staged70

    staged70 RIP

    Ok , I had my original 455 rebuilt . Unknown to me to straighten the deck it was milled . The shop stamped the numbers on the block face drivers side behind PS pump . They did this not of my asking . I would never try to sell a renumbered car as all original but I know it is . That said there is something else to consider . There are several levels of Numbers Match in my opinion
    1) VIN and cowl tag along with Engine and trans numbers match good value
    2) All numbers and date codes all match ie body, glass carb dist ect better value
    3) car still has every part including paint,hoses,belts ,wires A true survivor car with documentation to prove it most likely in the original owners or his familys hands best value but very rare

    These survivor cars are the ones that trade hands rarely for large sums along with cars with proven history ie the Reynolds Buick, Brads prototype, or the Motion car . A Ronnie Sox Hemi race car might be of some value if you can prove its pedigree don't you think ?
    My take is that survivor cars are not driven along with 100k Kliner restos also worth a bunch and a few lucky individuals that can afford these cars want them to be Museam quality . after all they should be .
    Now to my Stage 1 Suncoupe whats the value lost to me when every part is still there with 77k miles but the rear rusty half was replaced with a donor shell ? I know the date codes will show its a 71 in the back . Isn't that worth more than a patched together replacement sheetmetal from china resto ? But admittadly less than an unrusted survivor .
    Its all relative as to what you plan on doing with it and what you need to make you happy with this hobby . I for one want a replica to beat on and a survivor to show . I have seen some very nice cars that have had the block replaced just recognise that itas not a survivor and do not pay that price for it . I feel like Buick guys are the best about this as I have seen some good cars sell for real good oney and some that are NOM sell for the right money by honest sellers .
    Hey Marco you really opened a can of worms , I know of several cars ( mostly Mopars) that have had their good VIN tags and trim tags installed on rust free 6 cyl shells . This is common . I was asked by an unnames Mopar guy whats the problem I owned both cars and it turned out better than patching all those parts in from the donor and if I did that it wouldn't be original anyway ? I say its against the law thats why . The law would have you replace everything so he says all I did was cut out all the rust which was everything except the tags , funny but nnot my reading of the law . I would guess the law would rather destroy the original muscle car and make a replica .
     
  17. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    This thread was started years ago, after a fellow board member bought a 'numbers matching' '70 stage1 that had the Sloan documentation body number not match the body number on the cowl tag :blast:

    I *believe* the end result was someone swapped a stage1 VIN plate and motor into another 'A' body.

    It's an 'education' thread :beer
     
  18. Mr Big

    Mr Big Silver Level contributor

    The only reason anyone swaps VIN tags is $$$$. The tags add nothing to the use, enjoyment, and drivability of a car...only the value. What concerns me with the practice is "down the road" some future owner MAY forget about the tags being swapped, and then the car gets portrayed as something IT IS NOT! Along comes some more knowledgeable person who "outs" the car as a re-body, or what have you, someone starts pointing fingers, and everyone gets hauled into court.

    Not my idea of a fun and enjoyable way to spend my spare time.

    After 35yrs+ of involvement, I guess I still want to see this as a hobby, not a business...obviously others may feel different...and thats ok too. :TU:

    Bottom line "Know your facts" and research your car to the hilt.
     
  19. Mike Trom

    Mike Trom Platinum Level Contributor

    Agree 100% :TU: And I feel the same way about part restamping..
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    An oldie but a goodie :Comp:
     

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