Is the Buick 455 a weak engine?

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by rollerball, Dec 22, 2006.

  1. rollerball

    rollerball Well-Known Member

    OK, i know i am going to get killed for this, but my machine shop guy tells me that he does not like Buick 455 engines. He once built one but he says that the whole thing seemed weak, the oiling system was a nightmare and that he would strongly suggest to put something else under the hood of my 72 GS....

    ....this leads to my question: What has to be done to make the Buick 455 bulletproof and survive higher powerlevels? I was thinking along the lines of the Carcraft-buildup (TA heads / XE274 cam, etc).

    Please enlighten me... :Smarty:
     
  2. flynbuick

    flynbuick Guest

    Between 500-600 hp many install a girdle because the block in thin cast weighing only about what a chevy 350 weighs maybe 600 lbs. I think it was Car Craft that said Buick made the most hp for the money.

    He is probably a guy like most with little experience with building Buicks and naturally feels uncomfortable. I would consider one of the builders on here that has a lot of experience with them. There is a lot to know about building them that the other brand builders just would not know.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2006
  3. IDOXLR8

    IDOXLR8 Senior Member

    I would not put the Buick 455 as a weak engine. They are pretty tuff! The only problem I see is when it comes to over hauling time. The Buick 455 is now like a Chevrolet and Chevrolet builders for the most part can't build a good 455Buick engine. There are many things that are available for the 455 to improve some of the problems encountered (mostly from poor maintanance) and make it so it will be troble free. There are some real good people on this board and I'm sure they and myself as well will not steer you wrong. What ever you do please don't put a brand X engine in you Buick. I bought my first 455 years back and there is no turning back, the torque is increddable!!! :3gears: AL.
     
  4. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    In a word, No, the Buick 455 is not a "weak" engine.

    It does have it's weaknesses, but they all do, and below the 600 HP level, you need to upgrade no more or less parts than you would have to on many engines.

    Beyond 600 HP, then there are some issues with the blocks that have to be dealt with.

    Often times, builders who are unfamiliar with an engine, will automatically blanket the unknown with terms like "weak" and "nightmare" to persuade you to let them build a different engine for you, that they are more comfortable with, and often times one that they know they can build with a higher profit margin.

    Check out our engine selection, parts and prices.. and you will see it is competitive with other makes, for the same quality of product. There is certainly plenty of "cheap" stuff out there, but it is just that.

    http://www.trishieldperf.com/engines.htm

    We have built about 25 engines in the last several years in the 475-600 Hp range, and about as many between 600 and 800+ hp, and we have yet to experience a failure due to a "weak" part or casting. It's all in knowing the engine, and the proper techinques to upgrade it to a strenght level which will result in consistant durablity, at a given power level.

    Good luck with your project

    JW
     
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  5. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Weak is a relative term...... no you can't make 800+ hp and expect it to live but most builds will make alot less.

    The oiling system is often maligned but more often the cause of any problems is detonation (hammers the rod bearings) or improper clearances/build.

    I have over 400 passes on my Stage 2 with STOCK ("nightmare") oiling system (TA cover) shifting at 6500 and going thru the traps at 6400-6700. Stock rods, no girdle or bra making 675 hp or more. Low 10s in 3700 GS.

    I've put thousands of runs on 500 hp 455s with no issues other than a few broken (stock) rocker shafts.

    You need to get in touch with another builder. There is nothing worse than have a shop build a Buick motor if they think it is junk. They will make sure it is!!!! :blast:

    Bruce
     
  6. stage2man

    stage2man Well-Known Member

    The oil system is like the Cleveland ford engines with the oil going to the cam journals then to the crank. Ford cleveland engines have had a pretty good race record over the years. The block was the very last big block gm developed and is cast with high grade steel with a precision thin wall casting. This was done for weight savings. They have the strongest crank of maybe any big block. The thin bearings have tighter requirements then chevys. The front mounted oil pump needs to be a nice one like the TA unit.

    I have been racing buicks for 25 years. My first 455 was in 85' with cam, intake and headers. Nothing else, no oil mods on a small passage '70 block. Just an old set of TRW pistons and small valve heads. I kicked more chebby butt over the years with that motor. I added nitrous untill finally I had a foggers with 300hp pills. 10.40s with the same motor and I know it had over 60K miles of street miles because it was my daily driver. In the 90s I took this tired motor out and dissassembled. All rods and block where in good shape the pistons had stress cracks. Even had buick rod bolts. My chevy freinds went thru several motors during the years I had the same one. MANY now run buicks here in houston, won over from the dark side.

    Get ride of your engine builder and go to someone who knows how to do it.

    Use one of the Jims. Use Mike and AM&P. Use TA. If near TX you could use G&G. All have buick torque plates and can check your block for core shift. My buddy Greg took his motor to Chris Giles, brother of the famous head porter Andy Giles, who specializes in buick motors at G&G. When testing the oil system before wrapping up the motor chris noticed bubbles in the oil. He tracked it down to a pin hole in the pickup tube. This is why the previous owner had bearing trouble. Just ask Shawn about his 494 he got from ebay. Chris fixed a bunch of chevy type screwups on that motor. Both are solid as a rock now that they went thru a buick specialized shop.

    If you do use a chevy shop make sure they are told what to do and record every single measurement. Bearings, side clearance, crank radius and oil mods. This will force them to do it right.
     
  7. Carl Rychlik

    Carl Rychlik Let Buick Light Your Fire

    What happens with the Buick 455 when it is pushed to the limits is why there is engine failure. When Buick developed the 455,they understood that the engine had it's limitations,but when it was developed to be used in an Electra,the engine was extremely reliable. With our GS's,these engines make great power and are reliable,only if you don't push the performance envelope too far. At that point,no engine is safe from harm.

    The key to engine reliability is thorough and careful engine building.

    Oh yes most importantly, maintainance is a priority.
     
  8. rollerball

    rollerball Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the input. Since i live in Germany i have to stick with local companies and this guy usually does good work. I would agree that he tries to steer me toward another product to make life easier for him. If i understand it correctly the only thing recommended so far is the TA-oilpump. This is NOT going to be a raceengine but a streetperformer that will see the track once a year. My focus is on torque and my goal would be to have 500 plus hp and a max rpm of maybe 5500. The engine should be good for 12elves but it should mainly pull like a tractor from low rpm. I am not trying to get this done cheaply and i was planning to get the TA-stage 2 heads, headers, TA-oilpimp assembly, a performer intake, new pistons, the XE 274 cam (230/236) plus Rhoadslifters, TA rollerrockers etc.

    Now i need all the little tricks you guys know to make sure that this engine lives a long and healthy life. If you think the combo is not good please let me know but i was just duplicating the Car craft buildup.
     
  9. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Two recommendations: if you are looking for torque go with the Stage 1 heads not Stage 2s and I would stay away from Rhoads lifters. They bleed off valuable oil pressure and are noisy IMO. Good as a bandaid if too big of a cam is chosen and the motor is already together.
     
  10. rollerball

    rollerball Well-Known Member

    Do you think this cam will work with the stockconverter without Rhoads? I thought from the TA-catalog that the stage2-heads would be the best compromise and that the stage1-heads would be too tame....maybe this is wrong but i guess with the stage2-heads i still have some potential if i want to upgrade later.
     
  11. rmstg2

    rmstg2 Gold Level Contributor

    Just curious why would you recommend using Stg1 heads over Stg2 heads
    if looking for torque. It is my understanding the intake side of the heads are the same????? :Do No:
    Bob Harris
     
  12. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    That cam is pretty mild I wouldn't think it would be bad with a stock converter along with regular lifters.

    The Stage 1 street elims can make lots of power! I'm running 9.70s in 3200 lb Jag with them.

    Bob, the velocity will be better at the lower lifts with Stage 1 (smaller exh port, smaller headers) esp. at rpms where torque peaks (3-4000 rpms). Bigger is not always better.
     
  13. bob k. mando

    bob k. mando Guest

    Rollerball

    as you're in Deutschland, look for a Land/Range Rover V8 specialist.

    the 3.5L and larger Rover engines ( up until 2005! ) are actually the small block 215 CI aluminum Buick engine from 1961-63 which introduced the 'integrated timing cover' at the front of the block.
    many of the build practices should be the same or similiar as with the big blocks.
     
  14. stage2man

    stage2man Well-Known Member

    BQUICK is talking about the TA aluminum stage1 head. It can be had in SE or TE intake ports. The TE is raised and uses the stage3 intake. With the SE stage1 exhaust port flange you can run regular headers or manifolds.

    I would recommend:
    * TA grooved cam bearings
    * 3/4 grooved main bearings with oiling hole in saddle enlarged to cover
    * '72 or later block, half of the 71s. They have larger oil passages
    * I like edge orifice solid lifters myself
    * ARP rod bolts which means some work is done to the rods
    * sort thru a several factory buick rods to find the ones with more area around the bolt head on the big end.
    * TA front cover with the killer oil pump work
    * deep pan with pickup
    * light weight pistons and pins
     
  15. Woodie

    Woodie Well-Known Member

    aaahhhh...

    Hmmmm... Chevy guys "want" 4 bolt mains. No they need the 4 bolt mains due to low nickel content in the blocks. We dont even need 4 bolts... we have good castings... we can do 500 ponies with a rebuild and iron heads. SBF's split blocks... (i am a ford guy... ok back into my closet). Weak and light are 2 different things... Most of my friends are Chevy, ford and "cough cough mopar cough" guys, but they all respect and fear the power of the Buick.... So... weak... ok my 8.2 rear-end is weak, but the grip on my BFG's is weaker and the only race I have lost is to a Hayabusa... Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Cudas, Ferrari's, Chevelles, Camaro's and a Lightning... Saw my tail lights...

    I dont have the biggest, baddest, fastest, meanest Buick here or in SD, but I can hold my own. I have ported stage 1 heads fed by a matching B4b and Q-jet and mild KB cam, peg leg 8.2 rear and perpetual oil leak. Only major change is a TA timing cover. So, weak I wouldnt say so But thats just me Find a different machine shop
     
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  16. rollerball

    rollerball Well-Known Member

    OK, slowly i get the picture. So the block girdle would be overkill? Now i really need more input if i should take the stage 1 oder stage 2-heads. Would i be better off with the stage 1? What kind of power/ET could i expect?
     
  17. Bad Buick

    Bad Buick Foe Fiddy Five

    The #1 most important ingredient for building a reliable street 455 Buick is the rod and main bearing clearances. It seems every one has there own ideas but I can only tell you my expierience: the first 455 I rebuilt for the street I had the clearances set too .003 to .0035 on the rod and main bearings(Chevy guy prior to that :Dou: )and a couple of years later I was pulling the motor back out due to a spun #7 rod bearing and melted front cam bearing. I did some research and found out that from .0017 to .002 was where the clearances should have been for a street motor. So I had the crank ground(again)to those clearances and it has lasted for roughly 40,000 miles with absolutely no issues. I reused the stock timing gear cover but heres the parts I used to help the oiling system:

    1. TA Teflon coated cam bearings.
    2. TA adjustable oil pressure regulator.
    3. TA oil pump booster plate.
    4. 5/8 oil pick up tube.
    5. Hi volume oil pump(use standard oil pump instead!!).
    6. Mechanichal oil guage(mandatory with a 455 Buick!!!).

    A lot of people say not to use the HV oil pump as it puts to much strain on the front cam bearing but so far using SAE 30 weight oil and waiting till the oil warms and pressure drops prior to driving it has not been a problem. If I had to do it again I would have just used the standard oil pump and not the HV pump. I did not know about the HV oil pump issues when I got it.

    Four years and 45,000 miles later Running Shell Rotella SAE 30 diesel oil the motor sits @ about 20 PSI @ 650 RPM hot idle and 65 PSI @ 2800 on the interstate.

    Power: Depending on what the heads flow I think you will make 500 hp(maybe 525)easy with aluminum heads and that cam. Put a good ignition system and exghaust system along with a aluminum intake manifold and you will be there. Don't forget 455 Buicks love carburetion. Darn near impossible to overcarb. I would go with at least a 950 with that motor. And at that power level I don't think a girdle is needed but thats just what I think. The 455 Buick excels at bottom and mid range torque as that is what they were designed for.

    In my expierience the 455 Buick is a very reliable motor as long as you understand its weaknesses and take care of those weaknesses if you are rebuilding them for any type of power>My .03 cents.
     
  18. Eric Schmelzer

    Eric Schmelzer Well-Known Member

    Lots of good advise in this thread. Where you are in Germany you may be stuck with this machinist. What I would do in this case is do lots and lots of reserch so that you know exactly what needs to be done to your block (especially bearing clearences). Tell the machinist what you want and that you will be checking his work. Go with TA timing cover with oil pump assembly already set up, you can't go wrong here. The Stage 2 Alum heads from TA would be fine for the street (I know lots of guys here using them) But what I question is the use of an Edelbrock Performer with the Stage 2 heads. I think it would be more adventages to use an SP1/SPX with those heads. Also with alum heads you can generally get away with a point higher on compression, 10.5 vs 9.5.

    Check out George Nenadovich's (GStage1 on the board) site here http://www.buickperformance.com/page1.htm He has lots of good info there
     
  19. rollerball

    rollerball Well-Known Member

    Hi,

    thanks for all the advice. I will put a list together for the machineshop. I was going to use the performer intake because i wanted to keep the GS-airfilter-setup and because the Car Craft-test showed that the performer made more lowend torque. I was thinking about keeping the 800 cfm Q-jet to keep the look original. I am tempted to have the heads and intake painted to keep it looking as stock as possible....
     
  20. Carl Rychlik

    Carl Rychlik Let Buick Light Your Fire

    In any event, you will have a good running,reliable engine that will produce the power that you are looking for.
     

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