Im missing something Very obvious...what is it? Deutz Diesel

Original thread ...http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?308056-Part-2-Diesel-Engine-Deutz-F2L310

I had this deutz running outside the bobcat. I did take quite a bit of cranking but I assumed air even though I bled the fuel system upto the injectors and did use some gasoline sprayed though the intake. Well I get the engine mounted back into the bobcat and go through the motions of bleeding the system since the lines in the first run were all temporary. I check the fuel, all seems well though the fuel is older, I read that diesel does not degrade like gasoline. Anyway, I get to cranking and I get the puffs of smoke like she is ready to pop off and run. Except, I notice small puffs coming out the intake off one cylinder and the valve cover moving. :shock: wth? So i pull the cover and the rocker arms are loose. ok no problem, re-torque and get to cranking. Puff still coming out suspect cylinder. :shock: wth? Must be be too tight on the valve lash. For good measure I remove the rocker arms completely, put the valve cover on and puff coming out again? :shock: wth? Pull the head and re-inspect the valve and valve seat. All is shiny and even visually. no trace of a carbon trail. :shock: wth? Removed the valve spring retainers and place grease around the valve and press into the seat to see if I can find some distortion. nothing? ou:

What am I missing? The heads in this two cylinder diesel are separate, this is the cylinder putting back pressure in the intake felt by my own hand over the inlet to this cylinder, seen with my own eyes, there is no mistaking this.

Is this problem valve spring bind?

Is it possible the valve is bent and not seating well? How else do I check?

Im a little frustrated now:af:.

I realize old fuel would make it harder to start, but doubt that is the issue at the moment. It clear this on the verge of starting but lost compression on one cylinder makes it especially hard. ou:

 

Hey Chad... first of all the fuel itself doesn't degrade. It will grow bacteria from sitting, and growing stuff produces, well, fecal matter from the bacteria. Honest. Diesels with dirty fuel can do weird things. Youre gonna need to drain the full supply and CLEAN the tank. There should be a primary and secondary filter which will both be cruddy. These are about 20 and 3 micron respectively. The whole process will be called "Fuel Polishing" A 10 gallon tank is nothing. I have a boat that holds 1000 (!) gallons and it was BLACK, I ran it through a pump with two filters in line and it returned red. With fuel starvation due to dirty filters, the exhaust will be black and sooty and a serious lack of power. Semi trucks show this on a long uphill pull.

This is why its so bad to run a diesel out of fuel. Tank bottom crud and becoming air bound.

Diesels need two things to run; fuel and air. Ignition is spontaneous due to compression and injection at a timed sequence.

You have a fuel supply problem. Replace the filters and FILL them with fuel to prime them. Loosen all the injector supply lines to bleed the air out HOWEVER, the Bosch pump will need to be bled FIRST. Theres a bleeder that looks much like a brake bleeder on it. The supply pump WILL NOT OVERCOME THE SYSTEM DEMAND PRESSURE. Crank it over and bleed the fuel pump. Once it shows clear fuel do the same at each injector. I would suggest that you have the injectors cleaned/tested for good operation.

On the fuel issue, theres many tug boats Ive run as engineer and the used ENGINE LUBE OIL would be recycled by dumping it into the fuel tank. The fuel tanks on some of theses boats may hold 10,000 gallons of fuel and 100 or so gallons of lube oil didn't even show out the stack. Some even had transfer pumps and valves to accomplish this. Diesels will run on just about any oil. Fuel oil (#1 or #2) is the most common but even coconut oil will burn with a substantial horsepower derating, but it will run. The biggy these days is getting French frying oil from McD's, filtering it and using that. Its corn oil and the exhaust literally smells like French fries cooking!

The blow back is a little mystery. Valve timing is critical vs. injector timing. Are the rocker lock nuts secure??

Last but not least is cranking speed. It needs to be substantial to produce ignition compression heat, even if theres a glow plug. Keep the gasoline out of the picture; that's only gonna cause problems. Spray WD40 or PB Blaster in the intake if you really need to but not gas. An oil seal leak on a Detroit Diesel blower can cause a runaway. Generally on a fresh rebuild start up theres a pair of vice grips on the rack to pull it close in case the governor binds and wants to take off outa control.

If you are doubting valve performance, do a compression test. Diesels run at "about" 23 to 1 compression, and actual pressures of 300-400 psi aren't uncommon at cranking speed. Gonna post some youtubes... hope this helps! The little guy is a 4 cylinder 20Kw Westerbeke out of the boat. ws

[video=youtube;oAxQeURzR74]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAxQeURzR74[/video]



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Vid #2 Can only post one at a time


ws

[video=youtube;57lCDyoWx5g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57lCDyoWx5g[/video]

 

#3


[video=youtube;8nQDnMrjybw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nQDnMrjybw[/video]

 

#4

[video=youtube;OojMdgb0HDg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OojMdgb0HDg[/video]

 

When the head is off, and only when it's off, you can pour gasoline and fill the port, then look at the valve to see if your getting any leaks around the valve and seat. You can use gas or something thin like gas.

Cylinder head torque. Are you following specs for torquing. The Deutz used to be torque and turn so many degrees. I was thinking a pulled stud or bolt going into the block. I am not sure if the Deutz head bolts were 1 use only or not. I changed some head bolts / studs on Deutz for that reason.

Is there a manual shutoff valve on the FI pump? Is it in the right position? How about a 12v solenoid on the pump? Is it getting 12 volts. Are the injectors bled till no air is in the system.

Is there any way the engine is being cranked over ...... backwards?

Hope this helps a little.

 

All valid points! Some bolts are stretched after a single use and an air cooled motor is no exception. The "fuel off shut down solenoid" is another important issue! Mine was bad and taken for granted... for a while. I ended up (vid #2 or 3) using 2- 12 volt batteries in series to crank that 4 banger fast enough and she lit right off. After that 12 volts was the norm... ws

 

Thank you!

To some finer points - I do need to probably go through the fuel system. The lines were bled per the procedure up to the high pressure pump bleed screw, and I did run the fuel from tank into a glass jar for inspection (after the fuel filter). Nothing of note showed, no water, no particles etc...but I will likely clear out everything and start with clean fuel once I put the head back on. Good point about the governor! I had to double check this (governor) and as during the install in the bobcat the mechanical "cut out" was engaged. Separate from the governor, this is to kill fuel and stop the engine when the cooling fan belt breaks or is removed (like during install):spank:. It is an air-cooled engine! But I know this is not a problem as fuel had reached the cylinders.

The no stretch head bolts were torqued per manual - They appeared to be appropriately torque still once I removed the head.

The batteries and cranking could be part of this whole problem, but I had several batteries on hand and made sure to work in intervals not to burn out or degrade the starter. My last straw was jumping my diesel truck to the two additional batteries connected to the bobcat to eliminate cranking from the equation. It may be the starter, hard to tell. Its cranking speed really did not change but it does not seem "fast" either. I've read that cranking speed isn't necessarily a factor for a diesel with heated cylinders (glow plugs) though this is counter-intuitive. It was just on the cusp of starting with puff of smoke out the exhaust turning a little faster than the starter.

At the moment the head is off. I did this last night after I had removed the rocker arms and verified that the leak is still coming past the intake valve. It was very obvious since you could see small pulse of smoke out the intake. I did not see this when I first started the engine outside the bobcat. I am going to try the gas technique to find out what I can see. I think i'll lay the head upside down and place some gasoline over the valve.

o No:

 

Chad. The injector pump, has it ever been removed from the engine? Or the attaching nuts loosened? Is it the horizontal style 3 nut attachment flange, that sits behind the front drive train plate or is it a square style with 4 nuts and the pump lifts off a machined pad on the engine?

 

Square with 4 nuts and a bleed screw.

Edit - yes front cover and pump was removed. I did have it running outside the bobcat after un-seizing piston. See my link in the first post to my other thread, it has videos as well when this was running. Nothing was removed (other than belt) to install into bobcat after I got it running.

 

You're getting great information and advice.
Regarding the puffs of smoke,
I would add;
White smoke is unburned fuel.
Black or gray smoke indicates it's burning the fuel and trying to run.

 

Yes indeed. You guys are great to hear advice and bounce ideas.

Ok. So the puffs were white sometimes black. That's good to know. The white was definitely coming from the leaking cylinder.

 

Ok. update regarding the intake leak. With the valve and valve spring in place I mixed a little red food dye and acetone. Covered the valve and let sit. Sure enough, just a slight distortion in the valve/valve seat. I going to try to polish this out with some rouge metal polish. Then return focus onto the fuel system.

 

If its really slight you may get away with lapping the valve. Any more than that you should probably have the valve ground so its concentric, and have the shop bump the seat in the head as well, then finish with a lapping. Sometimes a little running time will carbon fill the gap IF its minimal, but most valves rotate when in use and this proves to be a last resort. Personally, Id freshen at least that one valve or all 4. JMHO... ws

 

Chad does the Deutz have a slot in the face of the valve? The part facing the Piston? I remember Lister Diesels, had put screwdriver slots on the valve faces because valve lapping was a course of owning one. I would try the lapping first with some fine lapping compound, if it works well, if not, then like Bill suggested get the seats and the valves faced and lapped. New set of gaskets and you'll be good to go !

I think some maybe yours does, have valve seals on the intake only? While you got it that far, how is the stem to valve guide clearance?

Hopefully it will be an easy fix, good retorque and valve lash. The other thing I was wondering is how long has it been since the opening pressure has been checked on the injectors? It will take a fixture that has a guage, most injection shops have them. A long, long time ago I used to carry one in my work truck. Part of the tune up on some engines.

We are pulling for ya ! Wish we could be there with you helping !

 

Thanks guys. Looks like using the drill press with a little polish has worked - removed spring, chucked vavle stem in press and let the head sit on the spinning valve. Checked three times with no spring pressure. Now waiting for the last test. Spring installed to see if it seals well.

I went a little crazy, I do have the manual for the Bobcat M500 tractor which includes the details of the engine, I also bought the instruction/tech manual and the parts manual specific to the Deutz F1L310 and F2L310. I've been kinda fascinated with this machine, Deutz and all.

I've been toying with the idea of taking both heads to a machine shop and have them do a valve job...just kinda tight on cash right now. I do have it on the to do list for future tlc. This little diesel is in my opinion an awesome piece of engineering and I would like to preserve it - it just seems everything was thought out and was built to last. 5 minutes to pull and strip the head. easy peasy. So not overly concern about doing it over and over (no head gaskets either). I almost think it is easier than a lawn tractor

No slots for the adjusting the valve lap if I understand you correctly.


Regarding the injectors, yeah definitely want 'em checked out. Weighing that as well. Im trying to balance this with getting some work out of the machine before summer is gone. ray:

Heres the engine all snuggled in bed.

 

What Jeff is referring too is a slot for a screw driver to lap the valve with. My treat is a suction cup valve holder. You really don't want to spin a valve continuously, rather 1/4 turn, lift, move another 1/4 turn and repeat. Spinning can put a groove on the seat...


Jeff, was that pressure test on DD's? The common rail systems need plunger pressure to operate the injector whereas my Westerbeke (in pics) and other perkins and onans etc make pressure at the pump with an open injector. EMDs are the same as DDs. DD timing is injector lash and the HP pump units turn the pump like a distributor for timing. ws

 

Good morning Bill. If the injectors are pintle style then yes, you can test and adjust opening pressure with the test pump. You can check for injector leakage, a broken spring and low injection pressure. Most pintle style injectors have a screw type adjuster under the top cap.

The injection opening pressure will settle over years and you will get early injection as a result. I have seen a few over the years with a cracked spring and they will pour fuel with no atomization.

EMD injectors are plunger injectors with yes the common rail as you described. It uses a different type of fixture to check for opening pressure and dribble. Those I never rebuilt. Pintle injectors, over the years changed some springs, tips and valve faces.

I worked on EMD exclusively for 4 years. The next 8 I worked on White Hercules, MWM 441, Stork F240 and F280, Brons GV and TD's and the Mitsubishi SA and SN line. The Whites were small displacement high speed 2100 to 2800 rpm I recall. The larger bore engines were 10" to 12-13" bore that turned as low as 360 RPM, most were 900 RPM and the Mitsubishi were 1600 RPM engines.

When I got out of the Marine and Oilfield I did a stint for about 12 yrs working on a Navy Base on a contract working on Hydraulic Jennys, tugs and 24vdc generators and a couple of 400 hz gen sets.

That ended 15 yrs ago. I got into telecom, but get to troubleshoot and start the fixed and mobile generators when I am at a site and they won't start, it helps keep the skills from getting rusty.

That was a trip down memory lane at 4:30 in the morning. I am on call for the rest of the week, got work up with a call out and am working on a site remotely, but the Deutz has my attention.

Chad I hope you get her running soon ! Good luck with it..

Edit. Bill. EMD are pintle style injectors too. Just camshaft / rocker operated, instead of using the Injection pump to pressurize and open the pintle. Didn't want to mislead.

By the grace of God I know what I know, (and still remember most of it ! ) BUT which isn't as much as probably someone who had been in the industry longer than I. I don't want to blow in here like I am some kind of expert or know it all, because I am not. But what I do know, your welcome to use if it helps.

 

Chad and by the way, that engine bay is Clean ! Nice job !

 

A few things learned.

1st - one intake rocker arm mount kept working loose. Replaced lock-washer = problem solved

2nd - freaking fuel. Old fuel was probably kerosene - yellow, put in fresh diesel - blue hue = problem solved

3rd - freaking fuel leaks man - still one remains.

4th - freaking starter quickly deteriorated - not going to survive another starting attempt.


Here it is running a bitter victory.

Need to replace starter for sure. After this struggle Im sure I will need to have the injectors or pump check out. I was forced to sprits a little gas to get it going. I will first though try a new starter to see if it will spin up the motor.

>>>Anyone have a good source for a starter?

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