I'm sure this has been covered before,so sorry for asking again. What is the power limit of a girdled stock block and crank? I have access to an NOS shortblock,which I could pitch the pistons/rods,but I figure once I girdle it and do everything else to make it work,I could just get a new aluminum block and go from there. I would like to do a big-inch stoker with Stage 2 TA TE heads. It will see more street than strip,but plan on making 700-800hp and driving it. I'm already doing that with one of my Oldsmobiles,and I would like to do the same with my Buick.
Depends on how it's applied, NA setup is gonna be tough on it the big cam and the rpm that comes with it ,big compression etc you know the drill. I would just do a halo with studs , half fill , and maybe the billet caps, all those combined would be a very good foundation. I would have no issue at all with the above making 700/750. But of course a Tomahawk would be the more "wiser" choice.
Cut your losses early and go with the aftermarket block! in terms of a factory block at your hp goals for race usage , if I was lucky enough to get 60 runs out of I would be happy to retire it in one piece! if the factory block goes on pass there is a very very good chance that not only do you loose the motor, but if you drive over your own oil, you could loose control and distroy the whole car plus whatever injuries you may sustane from that ! I have seen this happen twice in my 40 plus years track side, and the too late statement by the car's owner that " I was waiting for that to happen" left me scratching my head every time!
Aftermarket block a better long term investment, with little downside, beyond initial cost. I simply will no longer build what your talking about for customers. It just does not make any sense. And 3 years from now, guys like me get the blame when the stock block fails. I leave those sketchy builds to their owners now. My limit for a stock girdled block is 700ish HP in a bracket engine, weekend warrior type deal. Also it should be pointed out that for mainly street use, HP in that range will be difficult to obtain with driveablity. I would recommend some sort of boost. JW
That's pretty much the same as my initial goal for my project. Since I've had plenty of higher HP stock block Buick's, I'm fully aware of the consequences. That's why I'm going the Tomahawk route. My plan is to go as close to 600 inch as I can, 54mm cam, Stage 4 heads. I'll be starting out with a SP2 intake and a Quick fuel 1150 carb. (I may switch to a 2x4 FI setup......TBD). I plan to add some NOS to that combo since I have it available. (My goal is a true 9 second street car and I may be close to needing the NOS to get me there). The second phase may be one of several options that I'm kicking around, which will include boost. (My goal will then drop to an 8 second ride). These are "lofty" goals (for a Buick) but I believe they are completely doable with today's technology. These goals are very mild in comparison to "brand X" achievements and what they are accomplishing. I'm not looking to run "6's" here, just some slow 9 (or 8) second passes! LOL With your goals I would do the Tomahawk and not look back!!
I can get the power and drivability. If I can do it with an Oldsmobile,I should be able to do it with a Buick,with the abundance of parts. Oldsmobile does not have an aftermarket block.There was a guy in Canada making a full bottom girdle,and I bought one of those. It's a $2500.00 piece,but it's a bad ass piece. It's the only way a 455 Olds will handle that big power. Buick has their form of a girdle,BUT there is also a selection of aftermarket blocks,so that is the direction I am looking at. Do things one time. I plan on having a rotating assembly similar to my Olds. Velasco billet crank,GRP rods with pro material,and CP pistons. I just need to figure out bore and stroke. Aftermarket block it is.
I too am entertaining the thought of the Tomahawk Block. I have had girdled blocks but that was before the TA Block was available and would have bought one in a heart beat for that same type of application at that time. Now years later with 2 son's just about ready for college it's iffy. My question is: Has anyone put together an exact (or close) figure for a Tomahawk Block, 3" main crankshaft, oil pan, 54mm cam, and whatever else is really needed to make the switch. I'm not talking about rods, pistons, fasteners, required standard machine work (not modifications), or other items that may be used in and iron block as well as the Tomahawk. I think that reality would really help me to ponder an aluminum block more seriously or just be happy with iron. Larry
This conversation is a recurring confirmation as to why I think an aftermarket iron block would do better for our community than the alum version. Some folks don't want/cant afford to spend 15K+ for a 700hp engine. We all know the stock engine design will support it, it just wont last. So why not design an iron block that does nothing more than, "simply", corrects the stock engine deficiencies and allows for a more affordable alternative for those looking to make 650-1000hp without breaking the bank (or the block and car). Buying an alum block is one of those self licking ice cream cones. No one will put stock iron heads on it, so now you're in it for alum heads that you have to get ported to take advantage of the increased displacement you're going to have from that custom stroker crank, roller cam, and on and on. I mean hell, even the LS Next and LS454 block are less than half the cost of the Tomahawk block. I understand the reasoning behind going with alum over iron. I get it and i concede that AN option is better than NO option. It just sucks that your average enthusiast who wants to stay Buick has no real "affordable" choice for reliability AND power. I appreciate everything TA does, it just sucks, from an amateur racers perspective, to have to choose between delaying your project by years to afford the proper foundation for power or going for the band-aid so you can actually enjoy your car.
Thanks, I was thinking $10,000 + also. So an Iron Block/Core and Cast Crank maybe $250, sonic tested= $75-100, bake/tumble/mag=$150, TA Girdle installed/(includes line hone)= $1000 (average), Grind and index crank= $350, Oil Mods with parts= $250, Oil Pan=$150-$650 (depending on requirements). That puts it at $2750... (with a $650 pan included). I may be off on some labor rates or have left some items or labor out but I believe that's close. I guess a block fill would be on top of that. So what I see is $10,000.00 + for what is "Hands Down" the strongest, best re-designed, improved investment,.... if you can afford it. Otherwise for $2750.00 (starting) or there about you can stay within JW's proven sensible HP limits and have some fun, though it's still a roll of the dice. It's all about the $. By the way,.... I think an aftermarket Iron Block would be cool too to some extent, but can't see it being much less money than the current Tomahawk if it has all the benefits of the Tomahawk Aluminum Block. Larry
I would say 3500 to 4k is about max for a WELL prepped iron block, time line honing,boring, deburring etc finds its way on the invoice. Granted you intentionally omitted the standard practices that would need to be done to both.I would run Billet caps if we're going to do a full girdle, all that material coming off the top of the cap concerns me a little, the billet material would make me feel better. I went back and forth for over a year as what direction to go with mine. If my block was a 3.25 main it would make my life easier, but it is what it is. To be perfectly honest, even with my blower I don't feel the "absolute" need to have the Tomahawk for no more than I will do with the car, but....
I will say the Tomahawk needs a fair amount of prep work, I'm getting ready to start cleaning up the edges on mine, the more I look the more I see needs to be cleaned up
Sean, Thanks for the link. That is the anotomy of my 517" Olds engine. I was originally going to have the compression higher,and make over 800Hp,but I decided that I wanted it to run in 93 octane everywhere,so we put a thicker head gasket in it,to drop it down to 11:5:1. It still made 772HP and 710TQ on 93 cat-pee gas. It also has a special set of Edelbrocks that were ordered as raw bricks,and things were relocated where we wanted them,during machining.This also required a custom set of T&D rockers. It was no cheap date,but I am very happy with it. Now I'd like to do something similar with a Buick,and your parts selection makes it look like more of a cake walk,compared to the Olds. I would still do the billet crank.You just can't beat it. For example,the Olds factory steel crank is 80lbs.You can do everything imaginable to it,to lighten it,etc.,but you still have a heavier crank that won't hold up to as much power as a billet,and you will be over halfway to the cost of a billet.My billet crank weighs 55lbs.That's a lot of weight loss,when you are talking about rotating assemblies. It has a 3" main with 2.00" rod journals,and has the center counterweight added.Again,I would make something similar for the Buick. I also run a .927" wrist pin,but I don't know if anyone has run that with the Buick piston. I only have a 4.185" bore,compared to the Buick that you can stick your foot in. I have a lot of planning,but I'll get a game plan soon. Another thing I was wondering was what you guys are running for solid engine mounts or front plates. I never see any listed.
Not sure about the Olds Crank but Buick cranks are stout pieces, but for big cid it's a moot point. Theys a few guys with plates, and I have mentioned in the past that building a set of solid mounts that incorporates all the mounting holes on the block along with a motor plate should really help in keeping the iron block from moving around. I know alot of guys are getting away from Billet cranks because if their tendency to crack. Few threads on the Bullet about it. Just another point to ponder for anyone reading
Brian have you considered a 350? It has a deep skirted block design and with a bit of boost you should be able to hit 800 hp without a huge cam. TA is almost ready to release the alum heads, we have block girdles, we have billet King cranks, good rods and pistons. Build a 9:1 engine and add some boost and have something different.
On any type of factory iron block like these that need to have a girdle in place to live if your not also running a Billet 8 counter weight Crank your out of your mind to build it to the 700 hp level or greater if the motor will need to see over 7k rpm! boosting the motor and only spinning it to 6000 rpm and going no more than the factory stroke will make for far greater engine life!!
I wish I knew about the option to do a 8 counterweight crankshaft when I had King make mine... I just had them copy and stock one and balance it to my spec bob weight. Next time my crank is out of the engine I am going to weigh it and compare it to stock but for sure it saved a lot of weight and added strength at the same time. Mine is setup for a 355 cube turbo street/strip car to shift at 6000 RPM so it should be fine. I have a feeling that a lot of engine blocks are damaged due to external balance and also cranks that are flexing around a lot. Maybe it is less about the block being weak and more about the crank being a wet noodle? I have heard of some good successes with internally balanced 455s using billet cranks and the girdle etc.
