Hot start/timing question.

Hi, I have a question for you guys. Ever since the motor swap I have been having hot start issues.

I attribute some of it to the new TA aluminum intake and vapor lock, but I have been experiencing something different the past couple runs. If I shut it off hot and go to restart within say 2-10 minutes, it just cranks, and cranks, and cranks. The strangest part is that if I crank for a while then let off the key, not turning it off but just letting it return to run position, it will fire...… weird right? wont light while cranking but will light as soon as I let the ignition return from start to run.

I was thinking maybe I am having a electrical problem as far as maybe power to the coil or something but it fires fine cold, and it fires if I give it a sniff of starting fluid when hot, so I really think its a fuel or timing issue?

I never worried about setting initial timing, I had set my all in timing to 32 degrees. I am running Crane XR-I points eliminator and the coil is about two years old. I am going to go back and recheck my timing. If it is still at 32 degrees should I advance or retard a bit to help with hot starts? should I be more concerned with initial timing?

Also if there is anything else you guys can think of I would be glad to hear it. I would love to just throw in a fuel injection setup and get rid of all this problems but that is probably two years away so I need to do something. Thanks.

 

That problem turned out to be the coil in my engine, As soon as I let go of the key it would almost start but die As long as I was turning the key it would almost start but not. The coil would also send a spark which made me think it was ok

But it would shoot a spark about 1/4 inch and was weak yellow looking, once I put the new coil in it would send lightning bolts about a good 1/2 - 1 inch

You could use a 1/2 inch wood spacer which will help keep heat away from the carb. This could also bee the sock in the gas tank getting sucked closed also.

I run my timing at 32* total

 

thanks, what make coil would you recommend? I have a Pertronics Flame Thrower on there now. I think I can ohm it out and see if it is breaking down internally?

 

the points eliminator kit has been in the car for 4-5 years. It was on my old motor. this problem just started. are you thinking my resistance being not proper may have ruined the coil? why only hot? I did eliminate the resistance wire but when I changed the coil I did not do the Mulitmeter checks. I do remember reading but you know how that goes.... lol.

 

It has been years since I installed the points eliminator. I thought I remember reading that the resistor wire was only for cranking with points? it goes to the starter correct? Maybe I created my problems by having incorrect resistance larry?

 

Thanks Larry. I looked at the specs on the msd coils, they list primary resistance, secondary resistance, and a bunch of other stuff that I don't understand. lol. Their resistance readings don't jive with the XR-I paperwork....

 

so I spoke with MSD customer support, they do not make an internal ballast resistor coil so I obviously will need some type of external resistor. I know that I unhooked the resistor wire, if I recall my new starter doesn't even have an R terminal, so I will need a firewall mounted resistor, is that correct? Sorry if these are stupid questions..... Or do I use the factory resistor wire from the junction block somehow?

 

I was just reading your points conversion thread, so I didn't make any wiring changes other than unhooking the resistor wire from the starter so in theory my resistance should be ok. I will get the Fluke meter involved tonight and do some troubleshooting.

 

I have ( had) 4 different XR-i units in my car. The first one was fine for several years but then I started having random hard starting hot or cold, occasional no starts, and sometimes rough running, bucking, and missing problems which might magically clear themselves out while running. I replaced the coil, plugs, etc, even the starter with a gear reduction unit with no success.
As I dug deeper into the problem, I discovered that there was no spark during cranking UNLESS I first cranked it fast and then applied voltage to the module after the engine was up to full cranking speed. I know this sound wonky, but I was able to duplicate this phenomena with the distributor out and on the bench. I tried not one, but two brand new units from Crane with exactly the same results. I installed new points and condensor from Napa and my starting problems all went away.

Do yourself a favor and bolt in a set of points with all your existing components. If the engine starts, you now have a direction to pursue. As for me, I'm taking my loss and going to another manufacturer's product.

 

I run a complete MSD system with the distributor and MSD box I think the coil is a MSD unit might be called master blaster anti vibration heck I can't remember either since it has been in the car so long now lol..

 

Electric chokes can kind of cause the same issue. Even on a hot engine they'll close and be annoying to restart.

 

I hope to not confuse or appear to be contradicting anyone who has posted.

The "resistance wire/ballast" is designed to prevent 12v (or more) from exciting and burning the points.

To facilitate a full 12v (plus) to the coil during crank, when you need the full spark (and that the crank cycle is short enough that points wear from arcing/pitting/overvolting is not a concern, the starter "R" terminal (relay) allowed a full 12v (or more) to be supplied to the coil during cranking, and then dropped out and returned the voltage supply to the coil via the resistance wire/ballast.

Several aftermarket ignition systems eliminate the resistance component, and in most cases, the "
R" wiring can also be eliminated from the starter/ignition, but will not harm anything if left in place.

For example, Petronix may operate with the resistance wire intact, and no change to the wiring, and in other cases, all sorts of ignition issues can result.

(better to make the change to allow full voltage in such instances)

Over the years, I have found it is more beneficial to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer. It provides several advantages. A systematic change from one working configuration to a "new" configuration and the ability to both understand the things that have changed, how (they should) operate, and reduce troubleshooting if a problem arises.

The time to do that far exceeds the time spent troubleshooting and guessing what might be wrong because the journey was started in haste to "get to the goal".

I keep notes and all the documentation that comes with everything. I may miss something, but when I run into a problem, I can almost always un-screw myself from the situation in very short order, when I go back over all the steps, the notes, and documentation.

I hope the "wall of words" does not get in the way of helping....

 

^^ You have it right some systems use the resistor wire and some do not and like you I keep all my installation manuals and notes in my toolbox so I can go back when I forget how I installed the part and always read them twice so you get it right LOL.

 

Just something to check, I had a hot start issue, solved with new repro battery cables from M&H. I sent them my plastic block and they put the positive cable though it before putting on the connectors.
Nicely done and it starts 1000 times better.

 

Also I forgot about is make sure the big ground wire is connected from trans. to the firewall. I had done this with just heavy wire and this did not work as well as that big ground strap.

 

I installed the Lectric limted points conversion and the car fired right up, it is not running quite right, wants to stall if I let it idle, need to go back and recheck my timing, maybe something moved when I was messing with the distributer? I have a question on checking the voltage though, I am reading 12 volts at the positive side of the coil with key on, I am only reading 5 volts at the negative post though so am I good? I am a bit confused here, I read that when checking voltage to the coil with points, you will read full voltage with the points open, so with the points conversion kit does the pickup need to be in a certin spot or what.... Iam reading 5 volts to the negative side so there is a resistance/voltage drop through the coil, this negative post is feeding my conversion module so am I ok here? just don't want to fry this $200.00 points eliminator.... also any idea why the car doesn't want to idle after changing from the Crane XR-I kit to the lectric Limited kit? even after I turned the idle screw up to keep it running something isn't right, if I let it idle then go to give it throttle it stalls.... Timing is my first thought....