Holley Projection 4di on a 300. Help! wont start now it's cold

Discussion in 'High Tech for Old Iron' started by LowFlyLark, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    Holley Projection 4di on a 300. Help! wont start now that it's cold

    I spent several hours last week getting my Projection 4di fuel injection system to run. It was hard starting and flooding but when I held the trottle wide open it would start. It was getting too much fuel on startup but not enough fuel when on hard throttle under a load. After making many adjustments it was running very good. It would start up every time with just a click of the key (but the weather was in the high 60's). It was idling at about 750 and it would drop when put in drive but reset itself back to idle (before all my adjustments it would sometimes stall when I put it into drive or reverse.)

    Today I need to move the car into long term storage and it wont start no matter what I try. I hooked up the computer and it's getting way to much fuel again. I have literally changed all the settings so that the computer shouldn't be sending any fuel at all, but it is still sending to much fuel.

    Anyone out there with fuel injection knowledge that can toss me some suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  2. theone61636

    theone61636 Well-Known Member

    Try reloading the base tune, then spray some starting fluid down the primaries. It'll start up for you enough for you to feather the throttle and get your car warmed up enough for you to drive it.
     
  3. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    I reloaded the base and it's still dumping in way to much fuel. I disconnected the fuel pump and it will finally start up and run out the soaked intake. I connected the pump back up and it floods out again.:af:

    I disconnected the fuel pump again, burned out the extra fuel, loaded the Chev305 map, hit the starter and she flooded out again...:ball:
     
  4. theone61636

    theone61636 Well-Known Member

    What do you mean it's dumping in too much fuel? You could try disconnecting the secondary fuel injectors? I would call Holley tech and ask for help. It's been a while since I had my Holley Projection, but I don't remember having starting problems.
     
  5. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    Re: Holley Projection 4di on a 300. Help!

    I will back up and start from the beginning and hopefully someone can find a flaw in my set up (or learn from my set up trials).

    My Holley Projection 4di was old dusty inventory from a local speed shop. I picked it up for a fraction of the cost of retail. It came with everything except the fuel pump was missing. I added a fuel pump that met Holley specs and installed it by following the instruction booklet word by word. When I first set up the TBI it wasnt getting enough fuel to startup. If I pumped the throttle as if it had an accelerator pump on each third full throttle it would open the injectors for a split second and give the intake a spray. In order to start the car I would have to pump the throttle 10 times to prime the intake then it would chug and pop and jerk to life. Once the engine was at operating temperature (about 180 or so) it would start to run rich, so rich my eyes would burn with fuel in the air and the oxygen sensor was reading about .89. When I put the car in drive I would have to keep the RPM up or it would stall. I also had to keep the idle set at 1000 or better and advance the timing to about 20 degrees to keep it running.
    With the engine running at temperature I was able to follow the instructions for setting the idle. With the idle set to 750 and the timing set to 15 deg I had it running pretty good but quick wide open throttle would cause backfiring out the top and popping and pinging in the exhaust.
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    <FONT face=Arial size=3>The software that came with my system was DOS (if you can believe it). I called Holley for an update and my system was one of the first TBIs with an Eprom chip that would need to be updated. The new Eprom is version 3.34 and it included software for Windows 98. After rounding up an old computer I was able to load the software and start programming. I started with the map Holley provided as Chev305 to best fit my cubes. The instructions guided me to advanced set up to set temperatures, timing and ignition type. I am running stock ignition with a Pertronix II pointless system so I set NONE on the automatic timing feature. Once finished with the Map changes I sent the Map to the Eprom. The car wouldnt start again without priming and when it warmed up it was lean and hotter than h*ll. I pulled up the graphs and gave it more fuel but still couldnt get it the fuel it wanted. I went back and loaded the Chev350 Map to see if it would give more fuel and the car would not start no matter how much fuel I gave it. I sent the For302 map and it still wouldnt start so I went back to the Chev305 and started playing with the graphs to give the car the fuel it wanted. No matter what I tried I couldnt get the thing to idle or give enough fuel.
    <o:p><FONT face=Arial size=3></o:p>
    <FONT face=Arial size=3>Holleys trouble shooting guide tells me to check pressures. The original set up tells you to check pressure for both pump pressure as well as return line pressure. The original instructions said that the pump pressure should be 15-30 psi and mine is pushing 26 on the original 5/16 fuel line. Since my car is a convertible it has a 1/4 return line and the instructions recommend 1/4 to 5/16 return line so that looked good. With the new software and Eprom came new instructions. The new sheets tell me the return line pressure can not exceed 5 psi and mine was pushing 9 psi through the 1/4 line.
    <o:p><FONT face=Arial size=3></o:p>
    <FONT face=Arial size=3>Since I have 5/16 line for a supply line I swapped the return line for 3/8 line and used the 3/8 for the pump and the 5/16 for the return. This brings the pressure bouncing in the return line around 3-5 psi so all good to go.
    <o:p><FONT face=Arial size=3></o:p>
    <FONT face=Arial size=3>With the lines swapped around and all the Map work I had played with I was finally able to get the engine to run very well. (Very easy startups and a smooth driving feel.) It still needed a little more fuel on hard acceleration but I was happy to have it running and moving on its own power.
    <o:p><FONT face=Arial size=3></o:p>
    <FONT face=Arial size=3>In just one week the temperatures dropped in my garage from70 degrees to 40 degrees. I needed to move the car but when I tried to start it it flooded. I pulled the air cleaner and every time I try to start the engine all 4 injectors are constant full sprays. I have tried resetting the Eprom back to base8, I tried the original Chev305 Map, I turned all the fuel settings to the lowest injection settings, I set the cold start percentages to just 1%, I even went back to step one in the instructions to get back to the beginning but nothing will stop the full spray of the injectors (except to disconnect the power to the fuel pump). Every time I hook up the fuel pump it floods the intake with fuel.
    <o:p><FONT face=Arial size=3></o:p>
    <FONT face=Arial size=3>I have become pretty familiar with the software now and what it does but I must be missing something because now that its cold it thinks it needs to spray away when that starter turns.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  6. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    I'll add a little more info about the engine and TBI.

    When I pruchased the injection system my engine was stock. It is the Wildcat 355 version of the 300. The stock rating is 250 horses with 11 to 1 compression. The Holley I picked up is the 504-23 Pro-Jection 4Di, 650 cfm. Holley rates this unit to work well up to 250 horse power. I never did get the injection system installed before I ended up rebuilding the engine so now that I am setting it up I am finding out that it may be a little small for my build.

    When I rebuilt my 300 I added a mild Isky 262/262 cam and I spent many hours porting and mateing intake and exhaust. I also added shorty headers so I'm told I may be pushing 300 horse or better at the flywheel. With this information I would think that I may have trouble getting fuel at high RPMs, so I may have to upgrade the injectors to get the full potential out of the little engine. With the right tune, normal driving should be good for some drop top, laid back, fun in the sun.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2010
  7. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    Holley tech is not much help and the instructions tell me to go 1/4 throttle if it floods on startup, if it doesn't start then wide open throttle, but wide open really sprays the injectors.:af:

    I slept on it and I thought about it all day then it hit me...:idea2: If I hold the throttle wide open the throttle sensor tells the computer to spray the injectors fully as well. To clear the flood the blades need to be open but not fully open for fuel, so this time when I tried to start it (and it flooded again) I moved the throttle 1/4 (still flooded) then moved to about 1/2 and it chugged and popped and fired. OK Holley, don't tell people to hold it wide open when it's flooded. :spank:

    Now that I know how to cold start the thing I can play with the cold start settings throughout the winter and get that dialed in. The idle is off now from messing with it and when I drove it around the block the idle dropped down to 700 and it blew back pressure out the oil dipstick hole and spit oil out. (Must have been the low vacuum not pulling the pressure from the breather tube in the valve cover, it hasn't done that before.)

    I also noticed that I have black smoke now (it needed more fuel before it got cold) so I'll need to start all over again with the fuel settings.

    I am starting to wonder if all the hours of installation and adjustments are worth it. It will never be a 12 second quarter mile but I DO expect it to show it's horses and torque (and of course I need to know it will start when I tell it to).
     
  8. Steiner99

    Steiner99 Well-Known Member

    There is a fellow named Jim Mellema who has been running this system for a very long while now, over ten years at least. He was an administrator on the camaros dot net forums and now runs his own site at firstgens dot com. He's very knowledgeable and always willing to help out if you want to try there. His site is probably the best way to get ahold of him.


    I can't post links due to my post count, but here is a post of his from '99:

    GregGold:
    -Jim,

    Does your fi setup control ignition timing? If so, can you elaborate on it, as far as the programming aspects of it?

    Ive always wondered why a return line cant be 'T'ed into the supply line between the tank and the pump? Wouldnt that have the same effect/result?

    Thanks,

    Greg



    -JimM:
    Two excellent questions, that I didn't address before, but I should.

    Ignition: this is a "Standard option". The Holley system has connectors for a late model electronic advance HEI, or a Holley electronic distributor, but you don't have to connect them. The knock sensor module is an extra, and it only works if you have an electronic advance distributor. I think an OEM knock sensor module will work, but I'm not sure. I bought a new mechanical/vacuam HEI before I got the EFI, so I was out of luck here.

    Now for the ugly truth about the return line and the rest of the fuel system. I did, in fact, do exactly what you said. I'm running the a new 5/16 hard line for the return, and at the tank, I've attached it to the original 1/4 vapor return coming out of the tank, and also tee'd it into the supply. This does work, but it gets real ugly if you ever get air in the lines, such as running out of gas! The air slug runs around in circles and won't purge out, and you don't get any fuel pressure and the car won't run!

    At any rate, the important thing is that the system be able to dump enough fuel at idle. The holley book says no more than 7 psi in the return line. There are fittings on the throttle body to connect pressure guages to the supply (supply pressure is 15 PSI)and return. You can tell if you're not dumping enough fuel because the computer will show the injection volume at minimum and the o2 will show it's still rich.

    When I first set mine up, I used the whole vapor return line from the engine back. I had 11 psi return pressure (should be less than 7 psi)and a stinky rich idle. Runnning a new 5/16 hard line from the engine to the tank, and putting in the tee took care of that. After running out of gas, I crimped the bypass line off the tee, and the return pressure is still OK. So that's how I'm running now.

    While this works, I don't recommend it. Pull the tank, bring the sending unit to someone with a welder, and have them weld in a 5/16, or 3/8" return line! I've had a lot of fuel system hassles, all my own fault for trying to take shortcuts, and all totally avoidable.
     
  9. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    I bought a used 670cfm 2bbl Holley TBI for my T-bird off e-bay, and when I got it on the car one injector was plugged/leaking badly. It behaved the same way as you described (I'm using a megasquirt). I had the base fuel set to pretty much zero and it would idle nicely but wouldn't accelerate or run right. Then one day...I had the air cleaner off when I fired it up, and it was immediately apparent that one injector was spraying every where and one wasn't doing a thing (fuel set to zero!). Also I noticed that one injector dripped a bit after shut off. Bought some injectors pretty cheaply off e-bay and has been good since.
     
  10. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    *also, if it's spraying fuel during cranking at WOT, it sounds like your TPS calibration is off. Check to see if you can reset it. Every EFI system I know of has a fuel cut during cranking with the throttle over 75%-90%.
     
  11. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    stiener99 - Thanks for the lead. I will look up that forum. It's great to have a contact with someone that has been down the road less traveled.

    thesilverbuick - I will go back and check the TBS settings. It makes sense that the fuel would cut off at WOT on start. I know I set it once but I changed from the Chev305 map to the Chev350 and I don't remember if I reset it.
     
  12. RoadDawg

    RoadDawg Well-Known Member

    I had the same problem when I had the Holley EFI on mine. I want to say check your grounds and also your power connections. I think that is what ended up being my problem, but it's been over two years now, and my memory sucks anymore.
     
  13. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    I checked the throttle positioning sensor and sure ennough I didn't reset it, that's why it was still spraying fuel at wide open.

    Got the manual out and started from scratch. I resent the eProm chip back to base8 and checked all the wiring and it was back to square one. I loaded the Chev305 map slected none for electornic ignition set the prefered timeing and temperatures. SET the TPS this time and the adjustment base setting to 30 (based on the manuals start point) and started it up.

    It ran terrible but it was running. It was backfiring out the top with the littlelest throttle pressure so accourding to the manual it needed more fuel. I kept rasing the full graph a little each time untill I could give it throttle without backfiring. I followed the idle adjustment steps to the letter and she was running fantastic.

    I drove around the block and when I stepped on it she would stumble and backfire. So I loaded up more fuel settings and tried again. She still stumbles and hesitated but no more backfiring and no black smoke so I think I am close with the fuel just need more acceleration fuel.

    I raised the full graph for the accelleration table and hit the street, still stumbled. I raised it a bunch more and hit the street again. I pushed the throttle off the stop sign about 3/4 open and she spun the tires and launched. I let her shift up a to second and I stepped hard on it. NICE. This little thing wants to play. I slid it into first gear and pushed it hard to about 4000 rpm, she was smooth and clean all the way up.

    That was yesterday. This morning she wouldn't start without playing with it. The o2 shows it's rich but it wont start with out loading up some fuel. I read several posts on the Camaro site and it sounds like this is normal for the o2. So now I only need to start playing with the cold start numbers and I will be ready for the dino.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  14. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Good work!
     
  15. 66larkgs

    66larkgs paul 66gs turbo nailhead

    glad to hear you are working out some of those issues. in the begining it sounded like a bad coolant temp sensor(cts) but glad to see it was only a programming issue. With your cold startup (open loop)you will need to richen her up (open up that injector pulse)until that coolant is around operating temp, Are you using a gm style cts? That setup i want to say is in open loop until cts reads 110-120f degress. So the only sensors it would be reading is the tps,cts,and maybe a map depending on your setup. what is your intial timing? what are you using to moniter your a/f ? are you using wideband 02's? what is your voltage from your o2 in closed loop. are they bouncing .2-.8
    ? should have a nice graph pattern. www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm
    check out these graphs, and keep it in mind when tunning. i think tunning is one of my favorite things due to the instant satisfaction. didnt mean to ramble but thier is so many little things to get right just to get it tunned..

    paul
    66lark gs
    turbo 401 nailhead t67 rear mount

    53 r100 international,
    chopped, channeled,
    406sbc scat crank,
    .630-.630 cam 300r
    rpm ported heads
     
  16. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    Paul - Thanks for the o2 sensor link. Very good information.

    My Holley throttle body came as a kit with almost everything needed. The base tune in the controller was set at 110 degrees to change over from open loop. The software will allow me to set the temperature to go closed loop. Holley recommends 75 degrees so that's what I changed it to. In open loop the controller is reading throttle position, internal temp, ambient temp, oil pressure (as a fail safe shut down) and map.

    I am at 4600 feet above sea level so my map (not running) is 85.

    If I remember correctly the stock initial timing should be 12. With my mild cam and the point conversion it won't run well less than 15 so that is where I have it set. It does run better at about 18 but I'm not sure what it should be. Any suggestions?

    I don't know what the o2 sensor is that Holley provided but it has 3 wires. In closed loop at idle the voltage bounces the full range but tends to stay in the .8 range. At about 2500 rpm the voltage is in the .4 range.

    The software doesn't have a live graph. The data monitor program displays conditions as a number next to the text, ie, eng temp=180, amb temp=80, map=85, o2=.8, tbs=30... etc. I think I will need to puchase better software to fine tune. Achartpro software has come up on a few web searches. I talked to Orin about the software but at the time I didn't know what I was doing so the conversation was over my head. Any recommendations?
     
  17. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    Ah yes, the dreaded lean pop :*( Much easier to start out rich and work your way lean.

    Cold start is tricky. I still play with the settings on mine from time to time. I shouldn't *have* to, but when cold cold I have to hold the throttle around 1500rpm for 30-60 seconds before it'll maintain idle. I'll make sure I get that nailed down after I swap cams though because I intend on installing a remote control start shortly after.
     
  18. LowFlyLark

    LowFlyLark Time for a mild custom.

    I have a remote start installed with an alarm system but I pulled the fuse to by pass it for now. I hope to get it to auto start at cold. It will auto start worm which will be fun at car shows to play with. I am shooting for auto start with auto a/c for those hot days, I really dont' plan to drive it in the cold but I will tune for it anyway.
     
  19. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    I plan on being in the house and letting it warm up on those below freezing days =P
     
  20. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Years ago I converted a jeep 6 to efi,,,, had basicly the same problem,,,, turned out that I had wired the tps backward... reversed the wires and it ran fine....
     

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