High Performance Nailheads

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by funkyriv, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. 63riv

    63riv Active Member

    The jet kit was certainly excersised while tuning...I don't remember the total timing...I should probably check that now, 9 years later!
     
  2. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    if they did the jet kit,they must have did the timing too. just was trying to make sense out of the low hp reading. any body else use that poston 300 camshaft. are you still running that engine?
     
  3. 63riv

    63riv Active Member

    I still have the engine in my '63. Don't run it much.
     
  4. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    About 10 years ago there was a engine build in a car magazine, I think it was srteet rodder. They built a 401 with some modifications and ended up with around 315 HP and 440 TQ if I remember right. Buick must of stretched the truth a little bit. I think they all did at that time. In that engine build they did show head flow # and they were under 200. Also used a 3x2 intake If I remember right.
     
  5. 63riv

    63riv Active Member

    The person that did mine did some head flow work as well, but I don't recall, nor do I know where the paperwork is located (hiding in the garage I suppose), that describes the improvement in intake passage flow.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, I was disappointed at the results given the effort that was put in to improve the head flow passages as well as the upgrade cam, balancing and general attention to detail on the build. I figured, prior to running it on the dyno, that 375 hp would have been doable. So imagine what I thought when the numbers came in....in fact they ran at least 3 full runs before my eyes after the in ~ 7 runs to dial the carb in. If I could afford it I would have had him work on it much longer to figure it out. But, I hauled it home, put it in my '63 Riv and that was the end of that.
     
  6. I have the whole magazine series of the street rodder nailhead buildup. for all the work and exspense involved the horsepower was very dissapointing. I Had my 65 GS chassis dynoed before i upgraded the engine and from what i remember the only thing not stock on the engine was a reground cam. I always thought the engine seemed weak compared to a stock 65-66 GS. I ended up with 300 ft lbs and 202 hp at the rear wheels. I Had Carmen rebuild my carb, Recurve and rebuild a distributor and I used his W-30-10 Cam. that really woke that engine up. I never did make it back to the chassis Dyno but it was obvious that i had gained about 30 hp. also those torque and HP readings were at 3500' elevation
     
  7. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    There was another nailhead dyno article in car craft about 5 years ago. I think it was a stock nailhead and rear wheel HP was about 220 if I remember right.
     
  8. yacster

    yacster Lv the gun tk the Canolis

    You guys are making me re consider the 401 and want to go with a 455:eek2: Naaaaaaa. I guess that is why they invented happy gas!:grin:
     
  9. Yacster
    don't worry about it. HP is just a number used to impress people. Torque is where it's at. my 65 GS with the recurved dist, new cam and rebuilt carb was plenty of fun on the street. it would even break the 275/60/15 tires loose from a 20 mph roll and that was with the factory 2 speed switch pitch and a 3.08 posi rear.
     
  10. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Some things in that build-up were not done correctly. They used the WRONG cam was one of the 1st. things I noticed, along with other things. In ithat article they explained that the numbers from THAT dyno were on the low side & did some comparisons. Today, we know better. Don't worry Tony, just try to follow my lead. 63Riv that engine will WAKE UP with "my Rockers". You will be totally surprised at the difference. No other changes. Mimco, on a stock 425 I would consider a 750. Properly jetted will get you decent mileage. Again, "My Rockers" will make an improvement in HP, Torque & MPG.
     
  11. 66gsconv

    66gsconv nailhead apprentice

    I dont kmow about all this dyno stuff anyway. If the car runs quick and you can find a way to get it to not run out of air up top is what I wanted.I feel a big deferance up top since I went with 11/32 valves and TT ROCKERS. It seems like it wants to rev up easy and likes it up there now. My tach is not fixed yet so I dont know how high the rpm was the last time I took it out. But before at around that rpm it would want to start loseing power. I know this was already stated but it seems the rockers are going to help in a way that the nailhead never had help in before.
     
  12. 63riv

    63riv Active Member

    It would be nice to have an unbiased comparison of performance mods for the nailhead...just like any other engine out there. I agree, if the owner is happy with the performance of his/her car, great. I am interested in what purported hop up goodies really do, based on real data, not seat of the pants opinion.

    For instance, Poston claims 4 mph and 0.5 et reduction by using their "competition" cylinder heads, great, but at $1800 bucks I sure would like to see real data to support that. Same with camshafts, claims of 35 HP over the stock, well I tried it and the result is both Buick was lying about 325 HP and Poston exaggerated as well....or the dyno I used has a built in bias to the low side...very unlikely.
     
  13. gsgtx

    gsgtx Silver Level contributor

    tom why do you think its the cam,? I was thinking it could be but I did not know why ,did it actual hurt hp and why.
     
  14. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    To go by memory, I would have to look otherwise, the lobe separation was too close. The duration at .050" was off, etc. The tri'ps look cool as all get out but really hurt the performance especially with the Awfulhauser manifold. I would have to go through all the write-ups in that year long series to see what, IMHO, wasn't as correct as it could be. I could be wrong, but from what I've heard that engine expired long ago.
     
  15. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Scott, problem is most will not or cannot spend the money for dyno testing, weather engine or chassis. Then there are many other questions needing answering. On the last series of engine dyno testing & combinations over 3K was spent for time & playing & tuning & testing. We had many days (over 10) there & got a good deal. Most charge $600.00 a day +or-. Time starts from the 1st. day of getting things ready to start the testing. You don't just bolt it up & go in 45 minutes, ain't happenin'. Most take hours. Then you have to find someone willing to take the time to do it in the 1st. place. Many know what a "Nail" is but have never dyno'ed one & don't know what it takes to get one hooked up. It was the 1st. time for the guy we used. He always wanted to do one, but never really had the opportunity once he stated what the costs would be. Then we came along. The guy needs to be interested more over than the $$$$$. He is more than 4hrs. away from us & he was really surprised at how easy it really was otherwise. I gave ahhh65's machinist some hints as to how to accomplish this when the time comes. He was very appreciative of the info for he had no idea & would have spent many hours trying to figure it all out as this additional playin' time will have cost Eric. I saved Eric time & money just with some info for the dyno session. Chassis testing is easier. Strap it down & go. Most testing will give you 3 pulls for $75.00-$125.00. About an hour, give or take. No tuning, adjustments, etc. Spend the day & spend $500.00-$800.00. It can & does get costly. Those that have this testing equipment need to pay for it. There time, expertise, electricity, insurance, overhead & other nec. supporting pieces of equipment. This is NOT their hobby like it is for most on these boards. This is what they do to earn a living, pay bills, overhead, support families, etc.
    Just more of my thoughts. I have shared much info with the various boards on all this. The final word comes down to trust & how much BS may be put in there along with it. Will everyone take what you say as Gospel???? If in fact you DID spend the required $$$$ to perform these additional steps????
     
  16. wkillgs

    wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

    The article is here:
    http://www.buickstreet.com/build-a-better-buick-nailhead-page1.html

    They used a KB Mk2A cam. 270/278 duration with 110* lobe centers. Then a pair of 500cfm AFB's on an offy intake.

    EDIT: Sorry guys, wrong article. No dyno results in that one.
    The Street Rodder build used a KB Mk C-118 cam. 280/300 (228/244@ 0.050") duration with 118* lobe centers. Topped off with 3-2bbl carbs.


    I'm using an old Isky 310 cam with 109* lobe centers in my blue GS. Low rpm performance is mushy, but it rips in the 1/4... nearly 102 mph. In a 3900 lb car, that's about 380hp from a 425. Now I know it's not the best cam for the car, and plan to try something else someday.
    Hey Tom, does Rotted Honda have a dyno? We should hook up with him and build some Nailheads!
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2008
  17. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Yeah, I kinda get the impression he has flow bench capabilities that may be available to him & also a dyno. Don't know where he's been lately. Hopefully busy playin' with "Nails". I hope some of the previous replies didn't put a damper on his interests. We know TODAY that 112*-114* lobe separation is better. Stock, many "Nails" had 290*-295* intake duration, not 270*. And 295*-302* exhaust, not 278. At .050" this relates to about 218* intake & 228* exhaust. The 500 Edelbrocks are small. Stock they came with 2/625"s. The Awfulhauser is a waste of time for performance, but at least look good. We just swapped an Awful for a B262 on another friend's "Nail" with 2/750's & he can't believe the difference in performance & throttle response. We'll be doing some back-back testing as far as carbs. manifolds & "Rockers" in April sometime at Epping, N.H. race track. Hopefully this year both "Nails", Bob Quigg & Buddy George will be in the 10's!!!!!!
    As far as the cam your using, you need an UPDATE!!!!!
     
  18. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    GranSportSedan. You also live in Oregon as also does aahhh65, Eric. Get those T/A Rockers to him ASAP they are about ready, if not ready, to start the dyno testing on Eric's "Nail". A perfect opportunity to get this testing rolling for everyone's benefit.
     
  19. ahhh65riv

    ahhh65riv Well-Known Member

    Hey Tom! Are you stirring the pot? Just for the record....

    Doesn't anybody think I am testing enough already? As it is I am testing:

    B262 vs Eelco 2x4 intake
    Telesco rockers arms, vs stock
    Sanderson Headers, vs stock headers
    I've got 11/32 stem Pro flow valves that no one else has used
    A Comp Cam that everyone thought was MIA
    ...Plus a myriad of other high performance parts-just go check out my post.

    Someone has to pay the bill. To this day I am getting NOTHING out of all this trouble except a BIG FAT BILL. I've gotten no free parts, kick-backs or freebies from anyone for all my testing (not to mention the Epoxy block filler I have given away). The Dyno rental is $500 a day plus shop rate per hour for Garys time, and I have nothing to show for it other than a piece of paper and wear and tear on my newly rebuilt motor! Heck, I could have had a set of Mr. Gesslers heads and realy made a difference in my build for what its costing me. If anybody wants me to test something for them "while I am at it", I'll do it, but we will have to come to some sort of "arrangement". I don't mean to sound crass or sarcastic but I am at my limit of what I am willing to do for free for everyones benifit. I really LOVE this board and have learned soooooo much that I can't possibly immagine how I would have learned some of these tricks and tips otherwise. I realy want to try a lot of other experimental stuff, and the Nailhead is a perfect motor and so many opportunities to do that. I could hook up with Rotted Honda and start cutting apart intake flanges, or go into buisiness and start casting some new heads that can realy flow some numbers! There are many possibilities and dreams that I hope come to fruitition for our beloved nail. I just don't have that deep of pockets to foot it all.

    Erik (with a K)
     
  20. Erik
    Did you have to buy a manual flywheel to do the engine dyno testing? If so i'd be happy to pay for half if your willing to let me use it when the time comes to Dyno my engine. My car is using an auto trans but i was told they use a manual trans for engine dyno testing. also who is doing your dyno work? it would be nice to be able to use the same guy when i have my 401 tested although mine is a different sort of beast being that it will be centrifugally supercharged.
     

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