It amazes me how people still think its possible to come into a repair facility and think they will have a diagnosis of their CEL in 15 minutes. Then they expect it will be repaired in an hour while they wait in the lobby. The looks on their faces when I say "I'll need the car for a few hours"...its like I just asked them to turn over their first born. I watch my techs struggle with ECM, BCM, PCM, ECBM, TBCM, VCIM, M's up the wazoo!!!! And don't get me started on all the "software updates" that are released daily. Its maddening! BUT...the guys I work with do a great job with what is placed before them. Computers are here people...they control the whole car. You can't look inside a computer and see whats broken. Its not a ball joint, a carburetor, a belt tensioner, or a fan clutch. It can't be diagnosed in 15 minutes. Even my cell phone takes about an hour to update every time Google decides to drop an update. UPDATE...there's that word again!!!
I hear you. My favorite thing is when people go "Well, can't you just disconnect the battery cables and touch them together to reset it? That's what my friend said you do." Yeah, that's how we fix everything. I've got almost 30 guys back there in the shop doing nothing but disconnecting battery cables and touching them together all day. That's why you pay us because you couldn't figure out how to disconnect the battery yourself, right?
To funny! I can diagnose 95% of them in five minutes or less. Some codes are a little harder, but by and large I can tell you what it is and what will it cost in under 10 minutes. BE the computer, think liked a computer. It is all based on asking the right questions and logic.
Oh I've got guys that are 250% flat rate every single day. But the 2020 are much different then even 2018/19. When the mothership has no idea what's going on and you are basically writing the repair manual on diagnostics for them, it's a little different then knowing a 2016 Cruze needs cam actuators and a valve cover......
Body computer is ridiculous why do you need a computer to control the fan speed of the hvac. Let's control it with a touch screen that if the screen fails your radio, hvac, rear view camera, and GPS won't work and who needs half of thoes to begin with. You wonder why car companies are struggling because the average person can't afford a new car. The average car sold is under 20k and used. Build a car that is simple and sell it cheap.
I love that ppl think the computer will tell you what's wrong.........as ifvthe code is the answer.......yes there are some that are so repetitive that after you see the same code a dozen times on the same model you could almost lay odds that's what's wrong. The general public doesnt have a clue that the codes just point you in a directional area, the tech still needs to test powers, grounds, signal wires, internal resistance, so on and so forth. The truck I had last week was fixed for a front end hit on the drivers side front.....shop totally missed a few damaged wires in the harness above the wheel.....it wouldvstart and run perfect, till you shut it off.......and low and behold remove the cables and it would start again, till you shut it off. Well after about 4 hours for poking around on everything, tring to sort out where the issue was causing all the modules to bot be able to talk to each other, there was 1 broken wire and several others damaged that were scuffed or pinched that I repaired up, took about 20 mins to fix after 4 hrs of hunting.......and they ppl though they should only have to pay the 20 mins.........it had been back to the body shop 2 times and to 3 other shops.........not my fault. The body shop did great work they just couldn't tell inside the harness there was an issue and from the outside i can how in just a visual it was missed. Moral of the story this thing was throwing about 15 codes......non of which said broken wire in the harness in the drivers front fender. So yes some can found in a few minutes. But to make statement like that......that's something I wont say
I like to show people the insides of BCM’s, ECM’s and the like. I ask “See those little black squares and rectangles?” When they say “yes,” I tell them “They contain smoke, and when something happens that causes them to leak that smoke, the trouble starts. If you don’t get EVERY BIT of that smoke and put it back in, it’ll never work again.”
So if these things are a PIA to troubleshoot, and they always seem to be failing, just what good are they then? I don't know too many people with a 10 year old car that don't have a "check engine" light on. And then there's my old Electra, gets about the same mileage as a modern pickup and doesn't have any computerization, it barely has a solid state radio. It's 55 years old, and still runs. I tossed a 20 year old car away that had more electrical or sensor issues than my old Electra 225 has inches. Not sure if modern cars are worth the effort to fix, all things considered.
What is wrong with people? I would have been delighted a shop took the time to actually find and fix the problem.
Last week the wife came home from work with her 15 Fusion Hybrid and said all the warning lights were on in the cluster. Went out and looked. Everything lighted related to the brake system but the car drove fine. Took to the dealer next day. They said something about the master cylinder and booster. I suggested a sensor telling the BCM the brakes were malfunctioning. Shop ordered a new booster / master assembly. They delivered the car to wifes work for her and when she got in to go home all the lights were on again. Now the shop wants it back for another round of testing. Ford called a few weeks back asking if I'd like to trade in my 15 for a new car and I told them Id never ever buy another new Ford. This POS has spent more time in the shop than any of my 50 yr old cars. Like Marc said, the old stuff is way more reliable. Starts every time and when it dosent I know where to look and how to fix it.
I respect the people on this board, been talking to you for many years. I have been in the control industry since being part of a team to install an energy management system in 1982 in a department store. It was junk science then and is still for the most part junk science today. I say that because AI cannot be accomplished with low bid! That mindset will destroy us economically. Secondly, with hardware and software being outdated before it is released leaves us forever behind the eight ball as old and new do not play well together. Thirdly we have made this all far more complicated than it has to be because small minds know they have missed something in their rush to get it to market first forcing us to "need" them. Forth, tech is not all bad as it allows us to build mechanical devices that last far longer than their predecessors because of better build tolerances all things being equal. It has moved science and discoveries forward, helped us be safer, saved lives especially in medicine and war. Lastly, we place far too much trust in AI and that will be our downfall. 1. AI is not your friend it is merely a tool. 2. We can't afford AI that works as intended. 3. If I can't fix it I won't own it. Mikey
The parts stores are not helping either with their free scans. Just a gimmick to sell you a part that "may" fix the car, but the customer doesn't understand that. They look at the clueless junior parts salesman like he is a god, and then come in to my shop and expect us to do the same thing for free. I now offer two diagnostic routines. First one is 25 bucks; I'll throw my handheld on it and give an actual educated guess, or second; I'll pull the car in, do my preliminaries, put Modis Ultra on it, and do a complete and accurate diagnosis, using a combination of my 38 years of experience, test equipment, Alldata, Identifix, and a few other sources if necessary. The second one starts at 90 bucks, possibly more. I hate guessing, and constantly urge my guys to "prove" that a part is bad before replacing it.
Computers are wonderful things - prior to computer control, could I be driving a 340 HP V8 automobile that has gotten as high as 28.5 MPG on the highway? On the other hand I agree that there can be too much of a good thing; It makes no sense to me that the computer needs to control fan speed or the radio. A year or two ago I was a passenger in a Mercedes-Benz; the driver had to go through several screens of menus just to change radio stations. In my '55 Buicks I just pushed a button or moved a knob. If the computer doesn't make the task simpler, it shouldn't be in control.
Proving what's bad not just guessing is what's makes the difference between a tech and parts replacer.........and sometimes it's not even needing new parts. We run into the same stuff too........big difference in a 12k scan tool that we spend over grand a year to keep updated and 79.99 code reader. And they wonder why it cost to get a diagnostic run.......as if I spent that money just to have it there. I totally agree that I dont really feel that all these computer control system, direct injection, quad overhead cam with 72 valves per motor, all with DOD, and vvc, and whatever else bs they can put on has really done spit for mpg. My 86 lesabre 3.0l got over 40 mpg on the road, my 04 park ave ultra got over 30 mpg, new full size cars are t doing any better. And they were much easier to fix if ever needed.............IF.
I still cant grasp why windows and locks need to run through a computer to work......as well as why do every vehicle need a totally different power steering pump and alternator design......every motor already has to have brackets to mount they onto it......cant you just make the bracket fit design and save millions in dollars in producing so many different parts as well clean up stk in every parts store in the world????
I have to lol at these. The Zeus is an overpriced, underperforming scan tool. And only on the internet is anyone “diagnosing 95% of them in five minutes or less”.
I take it the Zeus is not in your budget, or you just believe everything you hear. Coming from a Master Tech of 29 years and a shop owner of 16. One thing I learned is NEVER bitch about anything. If you don't like a challenge, become a hair dresser.
So what’s the latest on “GDS-3” that’s on the horizon? We are hearing things, and it’s not good. A lot of the newer OE platform scan tools are getting harding to master. Ford FDRS, Mazda MDARS (haven’t used that one yet), Nissan Consult3+, ODIS for VW/Audi (finally feeling somewhat comfortable with that one) etc are all steep expenditures with steeper learning curves. LSID is a must too, as component protection is here and here to stay.
