extremely rich but lean at ideal

islandbum · Apr 5, 2014

Hey guys I hooked up all my gauges yesterday and I noticed my afr is between 17.6 and 20 at idle. Then as soon as I give it a little gas it jumps to 10. I found while driving down the road if I barley touch the throttle I mean barely, it goes to between 12 and 14 but then any thing else and its either lean or rich. I am learning how to tune but I just need a step on the right direction. Its a holley 650 with hanger 18 mods I bought from somebody on ebay that had it built from a race shop.

TheSilverBuick · Apr 5, 2014

I know zip and zilch about holleys, though I'm sure some one here will be able to help you on the tuning, so if this thread doesn't get any hits in a couple days I'd post up in the mixing shop/carb section. In the mean time I'd spend time reading up on how to adjust the different parts of a holley carb and what each adjustment does.

islandbum · Apr 5, 2014

Thanks, yea I have been reading alot I think to much to comprehend all of it. I already jetted down 6 sizes and it still is acting the same. And changed the power valve. I know I need to just keep reading I would like to get a holley tunning book just dont know which one.

carmantx · Apr 5, 2014

can you post a picture of your Holley? I don't know what you are working with, and there are as many Holley 650 options as there are quadrajets.
Do you have 4 corner air/idle adjustments?
If it is like the one in this picture, you have two sets of jets in the top of main body. The inner set on each end is the base idle and need to be changed for the idle mixture. Smaller jets here for the air will richen up the idle mixture.
Block the rear power valve, and offset with jetting change on rear side.
What is your engine set up? Are you running a turbo like your signature states? If so, not sure you want a power valve at all.

theone61636 · Apr 5, 2014

Well, youre in for some fun learning time. LOL. I'm assuming you have a double pumper since you're turboed, I would definitely plug the rear PV (if you have one) and jet up to compensate. First thing to check is float level. If your floats are even a quarter turn one way or the other it'll be enough to make idle rich or lean. Once you have those set, make sure your idle mixture screws are set for best vacuum/rpm (in gear). What rpm is your engine stable at? Timing? Give us all the gory details about your setup (jets/pvcrs/timimg/intake manifold/etc).

sean Buick 76 · Apr 5, 2014

Post 9 mark explains some info that can help you:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?239017-Blow-through-carb-thread

Justa350 said: ↑

Here goes...

Carb Tuning with Wideband and Vacuum

This is not an all about carbs guide. Im not going to show off knowledge of fluid dynamics and venturi effect, or talk about pressure differential. Im not going to talk about annular vs downleg boosters, or explain all the emulsion functions, internal passages, or what they do. Im also not going to show you where the idle speed or mixture screws are. In fact, Im not going to show you where anything is.

This guide assumes you know a bit about carbs, and are serious about really tuning it in. If you werent, you wouldnt have a wideband and vacuum gauge hooked up. I will explain how to change each circuit for its intended operating range, and how to avoid common tuning errors of fixing symptoms, with the wrong circuits. Following these steps will give you the best balance of economy, and full power potential.

Base timing, and advance curve must be set prior to tuning. Refinements can be made later on, but it must be close to start. To set base/initial timing, start the engine, run until warm, then set a quick idle mixture. Set the idle RPM to the lowest idle that wont stall. Advance or retard the timing until the highest vacuum at the chosen rpm is achieved. The idle speed screw will need to be turned with timing adjustments to keep the rpm the same, so this could take a while.

After this initial timing is set, check the amount of advance with a timing light. Write this down in a tuning log. You will then need to limit the total advance either with bushings, or in some cases, the slot must be partially welded, and filed to allow the correct amount of advance. If your initial timing was set at something high, like over 20* you might want to pull the initial back until you know how much mechanical advance youre getting. Once the total amount of advance is proper, you can return the initial to the setting you wrote down. Choose a set of weights and springs that gives full advance at an RPM that is typically recommended for your engine. Most like around 2500.

Make sure you have the float level and fuel pressure set for what is recommended by the carb manufacturer, not your buddy, or that guy who solved his lean condition by running 12psi at idle.

This will get you close enough to dive into the carb circuits. If you didnt already do this when installing the carb, pull it off the intake (I know, how annoying) and see where the transfer slot exposure is on the primary side. It should look like a square. You can put a jam nut on and lock it down which will prevent you from screwing with it later on, pun intended. This is important to isolate the idle mixture from the off idle/cruise mixture. With the carb back on, readjust idle speed if needed using the secondary screw, or if equipped, idle ease adjustment. Note that carbs with the idle ease, or 4 corner idle will need the secondary transfer slot set as the primary.

Now, to begin some baseline settings. Because of differences in combustion efficiency, compression, overlap etc, engines will like different AFRs (air to fuel ratios). Acceptance of this is critical to optimizing your engines manners. This is why we will be using the trusty vacuum gauge once again before using any wideband data.

Idle Mixture:
This is a basic one, but it will greatly impact how you go about tuning your carbs off idle/cruise circuit. More on that later. Warm the engine up to typical operating range.
Bottom out the mixture screws, then back them out 1-1 turns. Working in equal amounts for drivers and passengers sides, turn them in turn at a time, maybe even less, until the engine wants to die, but still stumbles along without doing so. Note the AFR.

This is the absolute leanest it will run at, but poorly at that. Now do the opposite, but do it for the highest vacuum reading possible. IGNORE the wideband at this point! Be sure not to go above the highest vacuum reading. Only open them up enough to hold the highest steady vacuum reading. Do this like you did for base timing, and readjust idle speed so you are getting your vacuum readings at the same engine speed. Only use the secondary idle speed screw, or if equipped, idle ease for speed adjustments. Dont change the primary setting. Okay, now you can look at your wideband, and note the number.

This is where it likes to be, but will quite possibly be a very rich figure. Mine for example idles buttery smooth at a 12.0, but will tend to foul plugs quicker. It also idles as lean as 16 but sounds like it has a huge cam. At this point, lean it out until the vacuum, or rpm drops just a little bit, but doesnt produce the choppy effects seen at the absolute lean mixture. This is going to be your best compromise of smooth idle, and clean plugs. Note this AFR.

Main Jets:
But what about IFR (idle feed restrictors) and IABs (idle air bleeds) you shout!? We will get back to them later. The selection of the main jet is a tough one to get your head around, but here is the real basic concept. The main jet needs only to be large enough to support flat, level cruise at engine speeds of approximately 2000-4000rpm. 4000 is really pushing it too. Who cruises at 4 grand!?

Warmed up to normal temp, drive the car on a flat level road at 2500rpm. Hold the throttle steady, and observe the wideband. You should be able to get away with 14s for AFR at this range, even with a fairly radical engine because the combustion process is better than at idle, the advance is likelyall in and there is very little load. If the engine is too rich, jet it down attempting to get it as lean as possible. This is where it doesnt matter what your buddys engine likes, or some Honda tuner. Go lean until it starts surging or develops a steady miss. Go back to the leanest setting that doesnt surge or miss, and note the AFR. Keep in mind that a steady miss could also be an indicator of a vacuum leak, ignition problems, or poor distribution. The vacuum gauge would be really jumpy if you had a leak though.

Going to a best lean cruise will likely create some drivability symptoms. This is where most guys say, it needs bigger mains. WRONG! Those problems will be cured with other circuits. Now were going to go back and flatten the fuel curve from idle through the 2500 main jet selection.

Idle Circuit Refinement:
To get a nice smooth fuel injection quality fuel curve, youre likely going to have to modify some passages in the carb. Make a chart of idle, 1000rpm, 1200, 1500, 1800, 2000, 2200, 2500. With the engine warm, run the car at those speeds in neutral, just sitting in the driveway. At each of those speeds, carefully hold the throttle steady, and watch the wideband. Throttle movement will cause the readings to jump, so take your time, and let it find a steady number. Dont just jot down the first steady number you see. Wall wetting from accelerator pump, leanout from slowly throttling down, etc can take a good 20 seconds or more to clear out.

There are 2 things were really interested in. Remember that good balanced idle AFR we achieved earlier? Is the number at 1200 richer or leaner? Is the number at 1800 richer or leaner than that? If the 1200 number is richer, the IFR (idle feed restrictor) needs to be smaller. If leaner, the opposite. If the value at 1800 is richer than at 1200, the IAB (idle air bleed) needs to be bigger. If leaner, the opposite. This is the area where most in town cruising occurs. This is where you can either get max economy, and clean plugs, or a swilling fuel drunk neanderthal that needs the plugs removed and cleaned every week.

This is also an area that requires a lot of time. Since the air bleed can affect the entire curve, you should change it with the restrictor. It should be a good match from the factory, but if the feed restrictor needs to go down, the bleed will seem to have a much more pronounced effect on the curve. As a general rule, if the restrictor goes smaller, the bleed will likely need to go smaller with it to maintain a flat curve. Change one, then the other, a little at a time until your fuel curve is smooth. Also, keep in mind that most engines will want a slightly richer AFR at, and just off idle. If that is your case, the curve should smoothly lean out from idle by around 1500rpm to what the mains tolerated, then stay there into the main circuit.

Carbs with screw in bleeds have it easy. If yours doesnt, you will either need to experiment with wire to reduce the diameter, or best bet is to drill and tap the stock ones for 8-32 brass set screws. Youll use the set screws later on too, so it is worth pulling the carb apart for this, and the ones mentioned later. If you read this whole thing first, youll know which ones to do. Same is the case for the IFRs. If you dont have screw in ones, drill and tap, but the screws will likely need to be smaller.

Another thing to consider is that air bleed changes in the idle circuit will tend to have the opposite effect on the signal to the mains. This is because by reducing the air going through the idle air bleed, more of it then pulls through the main. There could be some changes needed in the main jet after refining the idle circuit, but should be minimal.

Time for a test drive! Drive the car at varied speed, and terrains. With the idle circuit and mains smooth and lean, it could result in poor throttle response, and falling on its face under moderate part throttle acceleration. Why would we tune it like this then!? We will now begin curing drivability symptoms with the proper circuits!

Get the car up to a steady speed, say 25mph, then smoothly push down to accelerate. Dont romp on it, but dont baby pedal it. Think of trying to go up a slight hill, or smoothly pass someone. If the cars AFR plunges lean, watch the vacuum gauge. Look for the lowest vacuum reading that it runs nice at, then the point that it stumbles badly at. Note those vacuum readings.

Accelerator Pump:
Next, romp on the throttle from a dead stop. Do it both to throttle, and full throttle. It needs to be an immediate stab of the gas, not a roll into the throttle. Watch the AFR, and behavior of the car. If it goes lean, and recovers, but doesnt stumble during that lean spike, youre probably okay. More likely, is that it will pop through the intake, or stall, or come close then recover. Occasionally, it will go really rich and bog, then clear out.

If the first situation occurs, enlarge the primary squirter until the throttle stabs are responsive, with no stumble or stutters. If the second situation occurs, go smaller until it smooths out. Do the same on the secondary to cover the full throttle stabs. I have found that with the double pumpers, equal squirters front and rear works best, but you might experiment with a smaller one on the primary for economy, and a bigger one on the secondary for full throttle hits.

Power Valve:
Once you can romp on it from a dead stop, go for another test drive. Most of the drivability issues should be gone now. The next step is to optimize the power valve, and PVCRs (power valve channel restrictions). If you roll into the throttle, you will see the vacuum gauge drop. You want to watch the AFR for a lean out above light throttle, or a rich bog. If it goes rich too soon, a lower power valve needs to be used. To get close, use the lowest steady cruise vacuum reading you got from the first test drive. Go1-2 numbers lower for the PV. For example, if you have a big cam, and only pull 8 of vacuum at cruise, a #6 power valve should be used.

In most mild street and strip combos, the car will starve out for gas before the power valve opens because of lots of vacuum, and the lean main jets. This is where most folks put in bigger mains to cover it, but the best bet is to put the right power valve in, and jet the power valve circuit via the PVCRs. Like with the low vacuum combo, pick a PV that opens just below the lowest part throttle vacuum reading. In some cases it may require a really early opening valve. The most aggressive one Holley makes is a 10.5.

After changing the PV watch the AFRs as it comes in. Youll know when it opens by watching the vacuum gauge. When you are under a part throttle, but not full throttle load, and the vacuum is below your PV opening point, look at the AFR. If it is lean, the PVCRs need to be bigger. If it goes rich, they need to be smaller. If lean, use a pin vise set, or if you have steady hands, a cordless drill, to enlarge the passages a few thousandths at a time until the AFR under load is around a 12.5-13. For max economy, favor the 13. For max power, it will probably pull harder around 12.5. Experimentation will be required to find what your combo likes best. If it goes too rich, you have to reduce the size of the hole. Some folks have gotten away with JB weld, and redrilling, but the best bet is to drill and tap the holes to accept 8-32 brass set screws. This will allow you to keep a few sets to go back and forth with.

Secondary Jets:
Now for the fun part, full throttle blasts! Take the car somewhere you can run it out for a couple gears, while watching the AFR. Obviously a track is best, but do what you can and be realistic about the fact you will be distracted by gauges and need nobody else driving near you. I suggest running it out moderate throttle in first gear, opening it to full as you hit second, staying in it through redline, and a little bit into third. If the car goes lean, or pops or does ANYTHING weird, dont stay on the throttle. As with the power valve, tune it for max pull. It is probably going to be around 12.5 that it pulls the hardest, but some are stronger a little lean, some like a fatter mix.

The last bit is to watch for a difference in AFR as it approaches your shift point. If it starts to lean out, the high speed air bleeds need to be a little smaller. If it gets richer, they need to be bigger. Again, carbs with screw in bleeds have this easy. If not, drill and tap for the same 8-32s you used on the IABs and PVCRs. This can take a lot of time and effort, but having an awesome running car is worth it!

The wideband can be a great tuning tool, but it can also become a sort of car guy illness. You can get real finicky and watch the wideband more than the road. Remember a carb isnt fuel injection, but can be tuned dang close! At some point you have to decide when the car runs well enough, and just enjoy it. Also note that the aggressive initial timing, and lean mixtures can cause some pinging at light throttle. An adjustable vacuum advance can be used to cure that. If the pinging cannot be cured with timing, you might need to slightly enrich that portion of the fuel curve and compromise some economy.
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extremely rich but lean at ideal

islandbum Member

TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

islandbum Member

carmantx Never Surrender

theone61636 Well-Known Member

sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

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