Ethanol

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by John Codman, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. bw1339

    bw1339 Well-Known Member

    Other than higher octane, is there anything good about corn ethanol? It has a lower energy density (lower MPG), destroys fuel systems, absorbs water, decays faster than normal gasoline, requires more fossil energy to produce than what it generates... It is just a scheme for politicians to buy votes with our money.
     
  2. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    E-85 requires about a 30% richer fuel mixture, so you just can't fill your tank and go.. a modified carb is required. And as stated, you need an engine with higher compression to enjoy the benefits low cost race fuel.

    E-85 makes more power than gasoline due to it's higher latent heat of evaporation number. There is a much bigger intake temp drop as the fuel vaporizes. Similar to an engine run on Methanol. On optimized engines, that would require race fuel ,this results in a power increase due to lower intake temp charges.

    In drag racing, running the richer fuel mixture makes the engine less temperamental to minor air changes, so your car is more consistant.

    Due to a parts issue, one of my e-85 bracket motors was delayed almost a year.. customer had dropped 10 gallons of E-85 in sealed jugs.. that sat in cool dry storage for that year.. when I asked him if we needed to replace it.. he said no, it will be fine.. he's an engineer, so I did not argue with him.. and sure enough, on the dyno, that 13-1 motor had no issues with the fuel, making well past 800 HP on a mild bracket build.

    So when folks say it "goes bad faster" I would have to question that.. I believe this story comes from people that put E-10 in an older small engine, and then let it sit for months, during an off season. The alky attacked the rubber components of the system, and when it would not start the next year, the fuel was blamed for "going bad". It was an issue with the fuel, but not that it would not burn, it was attacking non-ethanol resistant rubber in the system.

    And in an open fuel system ( carb system with open venting), it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere faster than gasoline, and that would be another reason that folks say the fuel "goes bad" faster. But it's not the fuel going bad, it's absorbing water due to being stored incorrectly. Classic cars that run E-85 should have the fuel system drained and then some non ethanol gasoline run thru the system before storage. For cars set up to run gasoline, I recommend that you find non-ethanol premo and fill your tank with it, for the last drive of the year, and storage.

    For daily drivers in modern cars with sealed fuel systems, the greater hygroscopic properties of E-10 fuel has virtually eliminated frozen fuel lines in northern climates. I remember as a kid in the 70's, watching my dad pour a bottle of "heat" in the fuel when it was going to be really cold. It was iso alky, which would absorb the water and not allow it to separate from the fuel, and freeze.

    For your pump gas screamer, as long as you have upgraded the rubber in your fuel system, you will have no issues using E-10 during the summer.

    The biggest drawback of E-85?

    Since the real content of Ethanol is allowed to vary between 51 and 85%, especially in the winter in colder climates, you have to test each new tank of fuel, and if it's 80% or less, than you need to fatten it up with E-98 and re-test. An E-85 racer is well antiquated with his fuel testing equipment. But that's a small hassle, compared to the 9-12 bucks a gallon savings, vs. racing gasoline.

    JW
     
    Smokey15 likes this.
  3. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    The stoichiometric fuel/air mixture for gasoline and air at sea level is 14.7:1. The stoichiometric ratio for ethanol and air is 9:1. You may get a higher octane ratio with ethanol, but the cost is that you will use about 1/3 more ethanol then gasoline to get it. I hope that I spelled stoichiometric correctly - it has more then six letters...
     
  4. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise EFI/DIS 482

    That's correct John, to use E-85 in your flex fuel daily driver, it has to be more than 30% cheaper to be worthwhile.

    Current Unleaded cost in MN 2.40/gal

    E/85 - 1.93/gallon for the winter blend, which is typically E-70 or less.

    Only about 20% different right now, so it's more costly to run it today. But when unleaded takes wild swings, I have noticed that E-85 tends to be more stable, because it's only 15% gasoline.

    Often times I have seen it a buck a gallon cheaper, when we had those massive price increases a while back.

    Of course at $2 a gallon, it's way cheaper than race fuel, current price of VP C-12 (and you have to buy a 54 drum to get this price) is $12.40/gal, if you want to pick up a couple of 5 gallon cans for the weekend... try $15.45/gallon... ouch..

    So while the Ethanol game is purely politics for sure, it does have some nice benefits for the drag racers among us who chose to switch to it.

    There is no doubt all my future drag cars will run E-85, it makes the fuel cost for the weekend reasonable, for a working guy.

    JW
     
    Smokey15 likes this.
  5. alain

    alain Well-Known Member

    :)Ethonal bad that is all I have to say
    Alain:)
     
  6. HotRodRivi

    HotRodRivi Tomahawks sighted overseas

    You can heat under ur sheets with it.
     
  7. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Butanol is the way to go...
    Butanol trumps (no pun) ethanol in several ways: Adding ethanol to gasoline reduces fuel mileage, but butanol packs as much energy as gas, meaning fewer fill-ups. Butanol also doesn’t damage car engines like ethanol, so more of it can be blended into gas. And because butanol doesn’t separate from gasoline in the presence of water, it can be blended right at the refinery, while ethanol has to be shipped separately from gas and blended closer to the filling station.

    But....why would gas companies want to put something in gas that restores the 15-20% loss in MPG that the current ethanol provides???$$$
    Plus all the products out there to combat the negative effects of ethanol.
     
  8. faster

    faster Well-Known Member

    Don't have time right now but ethanol is much better as a fuel source than gasoline in hot rod street cars. I will post the links later.

    Alky doe not detonate like gas does causing engine damage, it runs cooler, it is not a danger to the environment if it leaks on the ground.

    Lastly if you built an engine to run on alky it will get better mileage and make more horsepower than a gas engine in normal driving applications where 300+ cu.in. applications warrant. All of our engineering universities proved that. Links to follow.

    Mikey
     
  9. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Corrosion, water absorption.....better mileage? I don't think so. It might be cheaper but you will use more of it.
     
  10. gszinny

    gszinny Platinum Level Contributor

    Where are you getting Butanol from?
     
  11. Smokey15

    Smokey15 So old that I use AARP bolts.

    Yes, E85 is not best for every application. We don't use it in our older, stock vehicles with lower compression. There would be no advantage. But, in my wife's late model vehicle and in our high compression race/street engines, there are advantages, such as those brought up in previous posts. Those who like/use E85 will continue to do so. Those who are dead set against it will never do otherwise, no matter how the advantages, such as those examples by Jim and others, are articulated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  12. RIVI1379

    RIVI1379 Well-Known Member

    Demographics play a big part of the ability to use E85. In the Philly suburbs it’s no where to be found and if it is it’s the same price as fuel? I’m from Omaha NE, it’s all over. Sometimes under a 1$ a gallon. So for whatever the mileage loss it’s a no brainer in my opinion. I have had several GM flex fuel power plants, especially GM 6.0 liters in 2500 HD trucks. Traveling cross country with a trailer I lost an average of 2-3 mpg on E85. It was half the cost of fuel. Science speaks volumes and I do not have the education to argue 30% etc, but I e never seen consumption increase that drastically. This is a great thread I’ve enjoyed reading this, and thought I’d chime in with the real world data. I’m a GM employee so my experience is a little biased but this is all interesting. I looked up E85 back home it’s around 1.50, 89 octane here locally is over 3$
    I’d run E85 in my current Malibu all day if it were here ...
     
  13. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Not available yet because they want us to be hooked on ethanol and it's mileage killing....so they make more $$$. Plus ethanol evaporates faster than pure gas....so add it up that's a lot of $$$ right there.
     
  14. faster

    faster Well-Known Member

    The problem is energy companies and our political leaders are in bed together and do not want the information out that alky is better.

    Here is the downside... Brazil burns significant amounts of ethanol biofuel. Gas chromatograph studies were performed of ambient air in São Paulo, Brazil, and compared to Osaka, Japan, which does not burn ethanol fuel. Atmospheric Formaldehyde was 160% higher in Brazil, and Acetaldehyde was 260% higher.

    Dual-fuel direct-injection


    A 2004 MIT study and an earlier paper published by the Society of Automotive Engineers identified a method to exploit the characteristics of fuel ethanol substantially more efficiently than mixing it with gasoline. The method presents the possibility of leveraging the use of alcohol to achieve definite improvement over the cost-effectiveness of hybrid electric. The improvement consists of using dual-fuel direct-injection of pure alcohol (or the azeotrope or E85) and gasoline, in any ratio up to 100% of either, in a turbocharged, high compression-ratio, small-displacement engine having performance similar to an engine having twice the displacement. Each fuel is carried separately, with a much smaller tank for alcohol. The high-compression (for higher efficiency) engine runs on ordinary gasoline under low-power cruise conditions. Alcohol is directly injected into the cylinders (and the gasoline injection simultaneously reduced) only when necessary to suppress ‘knock’ such as when significantly accelerating. Direct cylinder injection raises the already high octane rating of ethanol up to an effective 130. The calculated over-all reduction of gasoline use and CO2 emission is 30%. The consumer cost payback time shows a 4:1 improvement over turbo-diesel and a 5:1 improvement over hybrid. The problems of water absorption into pre-mixed gasoline (causing phase separation), supply issues of multiple mix ratios and cold-weather starting are also avoided.


    http://web.mit.edu/10.391J/www/proceedings/Ethanol_Wesolowski2005.pdf


    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/412095/a-more-efficient-ethanol-engine/


    https://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/mit_methanol_white_paper.pdf


    http://www.pacificethanol.net/resources/energy-balance-ethanol-is-a-net-energy-winner

    Mikey
     
  15. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    yes but butanol is a better alcohol for automotive and marine use....
     
  16. ken betts

    ken betts Well-Known Member

    Why I like methanol. No radiator, hoses, water pump, water leaks, & runs cooler. More room for crank mounted Pro -Charger!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2018
  17. squire001

    squire001 squire001


    I get that !
    Had a restored AA/FD front engine dragster that I ran on methanol ...... 11 years.
    Actually had to start it and build heat so cylinder head temps would be optimum
    before burnout and launch. Never worried about overheating.
    The trick was to run it long enough in the lanes to build heat.
    Temp gauge would actually go down briefly after shutting off the mag at the big end.
    then slowly rise after shut off due to heat sink.
    Trying to start the beast after a cool night in the trailer was sometimes
    challenging to say the least.
    Methanol likes Heat and compression!

    Sure miss that old car.....
     
  18. Smokey15

    Smokey15 So old that I use AARP bolts.

    Any pis of it? I'm betting that I am not the only one who would like to see them.
     
  19. Hawken

    Hawken Hawken

    Adding a couple of points/corrections reaching back to the original post:
    1. The overwhelming majority of motor vehicle fuels (after refinement and headed to wholesale & retail delivery) as a function of distance traveled from refinery to local retail market, i.e., "shipped" is NOT by truck, it's by pipeline ..... far cheaper, more efficient, cleaner and with far, far less risk of an accident (statistically). Wheeled fuel tanker trucks are used to deliver from an end point in the pipeline (and rarely rail) distribution hubs to your local gas station (generally a 100 to 200 mile radius); and
    2. The American Agriculture Lobby is extremely .... no, wait, extraordinarily powerful and, traditionally speaking, has used the goal of American (& Canadian) energy independence from foreign (unfriendly) energy sources as a reason for institutionalizing the ethanol system for fuels. In a post-911 world, it's pretty easy to understand that independence vs. interdependence argument when 378 million gallons of fuel are needed each day for motor vehicles just to live and work .... and that's not even railway fuels or manufacturing industry needs for crying out loud. So, ethanol falls into a "sweet spot" for energy independence and security (or, the perception of), the Corn Growers Lobby gets a STEADY market value and guaranteed market for its product (grain value fluctuations can be dramatic) and the Tax Payer gets to pay the bill in a number of ways to subsidize this process and market structure. This calculus is changing and probably won't continue to be viable indefinitely (while the market and economics sort out alternate power sources for cars, etc.), but is here to stay in the near term. (Note: there are winners, losers and whiners throughout the current system and my comment is a intended to only hit the high points, considering the nature of this post).
     
    Smokey15 likes this.
  20. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    The consumption increase of 30% is based on comparing pure ethanol with "pure" gasoline.
    As to the above post - it is correct that most fuels travel by pipeline to a facility in a (usually) metropolitan area for on-site storage. The fuel is then delivered to the retail seller by truck. My point way back was that somewhere between 10 and 12 million gallons of unnecessary fuel must be loaded and transported each day from the storage facility to the seller. It also must be pumped through the pipeline. The extra fuel needed to move this extra fuel must be considerable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018

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