E85 Twin Turbo 455

Discussion in 'High Tech for Old Iron' started by G. Avery, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. G. Avery

    G. Avery Well-Known Member

    In the process of converting a 72 Silver Mist Buick GS to run on E85 and adding Twin Turbos. Attached are a few pictures of the car and turbo mockup.

    Why? Joining the "Green Movement" - LOL.

    Pros: In Michigan, E85 is available at several local stations and at all Meijer's, it is 105 octane at around $2.25/gal and it provides a cooling effect at the intake air/gas mixture.

    Con/Pro: E85 does require 30% more fuel as compared to fossil fuel, but for under $3/gal you have race gas performance at pump gas pricing.

    Con: E85 can vary greatly at the gas station, it can be from as low as E70 to around E90. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% 87 octane fossil fuel, octane varies by the amount of ethanol. The ethanol % can be easily measured and adjusted. A simple kit is available to test ethanol %, than you can adjust with E100 or 87 gas to get to E85. Tested 5 local stations, within 5 miles from home, all are E85-E87. Also there is a summer E85 and a winter blend, this depends on location and winter temperature changes. E100 is actually 95.1% ethanol and 4.9% water and is 113 octane.

    Goal: With the stock hood closed, have a Stock Appearing/Looking 72 Buick GS able to run E85 pump gas and drive the family to our favorite pizza joint and track, both an hour drive one way from home, and run an ET<10.99secs & MPH>120mph, with 8 lbs of hot air boost i.e. without an intercooler and conduct initial test trials at the 2010 Buick Nationals in May.

    Parts & Plan:
    Still collecting the required parts and assembling on mockup.

    Fuel system: Updated the fuel system and replaced with all new parts from tank to carb, this was done last year for other reasons not related to the E85 TT 455 project, however, E85 is hard on old hoses and rubber components, so the changes that are already made will work out well for this project. E85 will clean out dirt and debris in the fuel system, much more than fossil fuels.

    MagnaFlow Pro 300 Electric Fuel Pump with Filter and Boost Reg, 1/2" lines with return, from tank to reg, 3/8 from reg to carb. - Installed

    Carb: E85 Carb Converted for Blow Through from Quick Fuel - On Mockup

    Extreme Velocity Carb Hat with 1" spacer - Extreme Velocity - On Mockup

    Intake: B4B - On Mockup

    Twin Turbos, Exhaust Manifolds, Waste Gates from Burton Machine - On Mockup

    Deep Oil Pan: from SRE - On Mockup

    CAM: 222,230/114 Flat Tappet from Bullet - Purchased

    Using a mockup engine on an assembly stand, trial fitting and assembling all the necessary external components. Working on oil lines, turbo to carb tubes, silicon connecting tubes, air filters, clamps, boost ref lines, etc. - Mostly Purchased - In process of installing on mockup.

    Engine: The engine is currently install in the car and will not come out until the work is completed with the mockup. The engine is a 464ic, 1/2 filled with hard bloc, with a main girdle, valley girdle and iron ported heads, 2.5" full exhaust system running power steering and brakes.

    The engine will need a few additional changes other than what is listed above and have not been purchased.
    Pistons - change compression from 13.6 to 9.5:1. - Diamond Pistons
    Air/Fuel monitor. LM2 or Gtech
    Boost/Vac gauge. Autometer from Summit
    Fuel Pressure gauge. Autometer from Summit
    Exhaust & bypass down tubes. - Tuffy Service Center in Novi

    Worried about oil flow, volume and pressure, so I'm thinking about using AMP's Scavenger External Oil System. - Researching

    Car:
    Roll Bar - Need to research options and requirements.
    Drive Shaft Loop - Installed.
    Drag radials.
    Current weight with driver and 3/4 tank 4070lbs.
    Adding about 50-100lbs for turbos etc.
    Not sure what else is required to run for ET goal. Need to research track rules for ET.
    ** If someone has a copy of the 2009 NHRA and/or IHRA rules please provide the requirements for ET of 10.50 to 10.99.

    Hope you enjoy the post, the overall timing goal is to have the car running at the 2010 Buick Nationals in May. I will try to update this post as progress is made.

    Thanks for reading,
    Greg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 10, 2009
  2. 69BUICKSTAGE1

    69BUICKSTAGE1 Well-Known Member

    I Will Trade You Some 9.5 Pistons For The 13.6 Ones ,i May Have The Fuel Pressure And Boost Gauges Also,will Have To Find Them.you Have To Drive An Hour To Get Pizza?sounds Like A Good Idea You Have There,hope To See It Finished. Randy
     
  3. G. Avery

    G. Avery Well-Known Member

    I'm assuming the 9.5 pistons are stock type? Because of the modifications to the existing engine (zero deck, rods, etc) and the boost levels, I could not find stock type forged pistons that will work/fit my engine. I would be willing to sell the 13.6 pistons, they are forged JE for a 4.320 bore. I can provide the spec sheet so that you can see if they will work for you, let me know.

    I'm trying to match up the new gauges with the oil and temp that are in the car, can you provide pics?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2009
  4. K0K0

    K0K0 Jamie

    Wouldn't it be a better choice to run a single plane intake?That will give you hood clearance issues though.Should the 3/8 fuel line be bumped up to 1/2 if you need 30% more fuel demand?
    Jamie
     
  5. silvergs72

    silvergs72 silvergs

    Greg

    Sounds like a very well thought out project that will make some serious power!

    The only thing I would seriously rethink is the use of an intercooler. I set up a turbo v6 in a Skyhawk years ago and it was a killer fast car. FOR ONE PASS!!
    Even with the spark retard it would heat up and start to spark knock so bad I thought the heads were coming up though the hood! I vowed then that I would never build another boosted street car without an intercooler.
    In the big picture of your build the cost of an intercooler should not be a show stopper. If you do some research you should be able to get on and all the plumbing for under $1000.

    Good luck with your project.
    Mike
     
  6. sean Buick 76

    sean Buick 76 Buick Nut

    Very cool project! I see you are using the Burton Machine manifolds, they would work well for you. As far as inter-cooling I would use a water/methanol injection kit like i am using on my twin turbo 350 to cool the charge.

    The NHRA requirements are listed on line, goodluck!!!
     
  7. alan

    alan High-tech Dinosaur

    How much boost were you running?


     
  8. K0K0

    K0K0 Jamie

    I think blow-through on E85 is going to cool the charge very well.Might not need an inter-cooler until the boost is turned up.
    Jamie
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
  9. silvergs72

    silvergs72 silvergs

    Alan

    I started at 10psi and went up from there. It never made any difference with the spark knock. There is a reason that all manufacurers have gone to intercoolers on there turbo setups.

    Mike
     
  10. Larry J

    Larry J Stuck on Buick

    Jamie,

    I know some guys are thinking about turbos out here, are you one of them?

    We had a 2003 4.6 multivalve Cobra at the shop a few months ago that ran 15 + lbs of boost with 9.00:1 on pump gas (we have 94 octane here). I test drove it after we figured it had piston problems, to see what boost it had and I saw it hit 17 lbs just hitting the throttle for a couple of seconds on the highway. But he drove it that way, and hard too, for 25,000 miles (it left here with 8.0:1 pistons). Anyways, I wonder, what has anyone boosted max out of these units with methanol?? Anyone know what works best for compression and boost for methanol, eg: a chart or something?

    Thanks, Larry.:TU:
     
  11. NJBuickRacer

    NJBuickRacer I'd rather be racing...

    Sounds well thought out and a fun project. If you don't mind some input, I have a couple of thoughts. I'd recommend going with -8 teflon lined fuel line for feed, -6 teflon lined return. The teflon stuff will tolerate the alcohol content much better than standard rubber lined hose. Make sure you don't have too much overlap on the cam, boosted applications are more sensitive to cam selection. I like no overlap for a boosted street car, personally. Given that your target boost is fairly low in relative terms, make sure your wastegates are adequately sized. You need more wastegate flow than some, so enough exhaust can bypass the exhaust wheel when target boost is reached or you may experience "boost creep". Try to size your turbos so that you're not out of the efficiency range on the compressor map in your desired operational area. Your timing under boost will not need to be high. I'll go as far as to recommend 18-20 degrees base timing, locked out with no mechanical advance to start with. Less timing at higher RPMs under boost will keep cylinder pressures in check and reduce the potential for detonation, particularly in your non intercooled application. I'd prefer to see this done with EFI for management given the significantly increased amount of control over the fueling and ignition, but I'll be interested to see your results with a carb/distributor for management. Keep us posted, and good luck :TU:
     
  12. G. Avery

    G. Avery Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the input and comments, I'm open to ideas.

    Single plane intake - Would like to use stock hood, things are tight now with the carb hat and B4B.

    3/8 vs 1/2 fuel line from reg. Good idea, I think that I will change to all 1/2.

    Intercooler - I would like to see if with less than 8 lbs of boost with E85 can the goals be reached without an intercooler. And adding an intercooler can be a future update/improve if the goals can not be met or for new goals.

    Cam is very mild 222,230/114 has no overlap.

    The fuel lines installed last year are capable with E85.

    Once assembled and after cam break in, most likely start with very little boost and work up to 8lbs and will work with timing for best overall performance.
     
  13. alan

    alan High-tech Dinosaur

    Thanks! I think I'll top out at 8 (already been there) and add an intercooler before going further.
     
  14. K0K0

    K0K0 Jamie

    Hi Larry no boost for me i thought about it but loosing my "Good" bottom-end this year has changed my mind.I like to bench race it abit but until i can keep a na motor together then maybe.Pro charger would be more my style.So i could run standard exhaust.The load on front of the crank is abit of a concern to me.So twin turbo's would be sweet.I like the cooling factor and the cost savings of blow through which one of my friends has run so i could bug him for help.These are if's but i could get used turbo's and have them rebuilt @ a truck shop to save some $.The procharger would have to be bought new as i would think only they could repair/rebuild it.
    Have you had your car out to race this year? How hard did that Cobra pull or was it just a complete loss of traction?
    Jamie
     
  15. Larry J

    Larry J Stuck on Buick

    Sorry Jamie I haven't been out there since I had Mark drive the car in 2007? My daoughter is interested in driving, if not this year, we'll have it out for sure next year with some new stuff. The Cobra seemed to pull as hard as the Buick, maybe harder on the highway. I didn't try it from a dead stop, I was just interested in what he was running for pressure, as he killed some pistons and I wanted to know before we pulled it apart. That's right, I forgot the old pistons were still in it. I saved a couple for show, they had the upper lands melted out in places. Those 4.6s go pretty good, it had a Kenne Bell super charger, but Fords aren't my thing.
    Now I wonder how an aluminum block 730 Buick would like a turbo on meth?
     
  16. sailbrd

    sailbrd Well-Known Member

    I agree that the single plane is a better choice for boost. You will run into problem with hood clearance. Will have my modified carb hat today and we will see how that works (with SP-1)

    My fuel system will be done this week (finally!) Will post pictures and specs but the basics are -8AN feed and -10AN return. RobbMC regulator. More later.

    In Michigan the E85 is pretty consistant. Problem is does not sell well and the local station no longer has it.
     
  17. sailbrd

    sailbrd Well-Known Member

    Greg,
    There is no way you can have the one inch spacer on that carb hat.

    Just got my carb hat back and it is about 1/4 too tall. Will check what the total height is. Back to cutting and grinding. :mad: I am using an sp-1 which I know is taller but there is just not enough room under our hoods.
     
  18. G. Avery

    G. Avery Well-Known Member

    Doug,

    I agree, I was hoping that someone else figured a way to make it all fit. I think that you using a simular carb, carb hat and spacer with the SP1?

    I did a quick check by measuring the differences between stock parts (what is on the car now) and the new parts. With the 1" spacer it will be too close, won't know how much to remove until the engine is actually installed in the car.

    Without the spacer it looks like about 1/2" clearance, using a clay ball as a gauge and a cardboard spacer (to simulate the difference between stock and new setup).

    When I removed the 1" spacer, the extreme velocity carb hat, hits the front of the carb. So I might need to angle grind either the carb hat and/or spacer in order to fit, and/or relief cut the contact point where it is hitting, pending how much needs to be removed.

    Can you post a picture or two? I would like to see your setup.
     
  19. sailbrd

    sailbrd Well-Known Member

    What I just did does not fit yet. I think that I need to put in new body bushings to gain some hood height.

    First I tried the Spectre hat. That does not work because it is too tight to the vent tubes and the car fell flat as soon is I hit the gas. This was just using it with a cone filter to try it out.

    So I did the clay thing and it looked like I had 1/2 an inch to play with (if you grind parts of the hood) made a spacer and had it welded up. Seems to be hitting at the neck so more work with the grinder. Sometimes I feel like putting one of those Z28 setups on it and not fight with the stock hood hight.

    Still waiting for a fuel line fitting for the new fuel system. It anyone tells you it is easy to boost one of our Buicks they are not purveyors of truth. :laugh:
     

    Attached Files:

  20. G. Avery

    G. Avery Well-Known Member

    I would agree with that, I hope to be done by May 10?

    Project looks good, how long have you been at it?

    Question, what are you using for carb cable linkage setup? Do you have a p/n? Also, who did your Alum welding?
     

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