Define the term "survivor" in car terms.

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by rkammer, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. scubasteve455

    scubasteve455 Well-Known Member

    That could be a needle n the hay stack
     
  2. 65gs76limited

    65gs76limited Well-Known Member

    Just my opinion but a repainted NOM can't be in a survivor. It's no-longer as it left the factory. Tom
     
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  3. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Super Moderator Staff Member

    I would agree.
     
  4. BUQUICK

    BUQUICK I'm your huckleberry.

    You are correct about that. The term SURVIVOR is a registered trademark and they do not allow it to be used for profit by anyone.


    What is a SURVIVOR? Well here is how Bloomington officially describes a SURVIVOR: http://www.bloomingtongold.com/images/Indy/BlmGold_BWSurvGuidelines.pdf
     
  5. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    OK - I'm stupid - What is NOM?
     
  6. Brett Slater

    Brett Slater Super Moderator Staff Member

    Non Original Motor.
     
  7. TROSE11SECGN

    TROSE11SECGN Boost is my drug

    To myself a survivor is an original drive train car , original interior, and original paint/bright work. To me if it has been touched up or blended paint in some areas that can go "survivor" as well, i.e. a fender touched up or door blended after it was scratched,etc.

    Both these cars below are low mile survivors, 54k for the GS and 80k for the Limited. Both have replaced exhaust systems, tires, battery and fluids. The 87 has all original hoses and the 70 has quite a few as well still. Both have original interiors, shee tmetal and drive lines! I think a car can be a low mile original survivor but once you start talking major sheet metal has been replaced like floors and quarters it loses its original integrity.

    I also believe a survivor can not be a survivor if it has had a repaint.

    The question is a car that is all original but missing its original motor or transmission is where it gets tricky. I prefer survivor and original cars as my stepfather and i for those who follow us sell quite a few all over the globe, some owners even from V8 Buick have bought from us!

    It is interesting talking with a Mopar friend of mine who collects and loves everything. He brought up an interesting point about the rise and interest with 80s G body cars and the values are going up the last few years at a very very fast pace. His point was not many originals will be left in due time because so many have been cut up into race/stock cars, cut up for air ride and big rims and sound systems,etc. Its a valid point as i can remember when i was 16 my stepfather was buying every 80s G body he could find down south and they would rarely last a few days for sale in Ohio where we are at because the salt and winters eat them alive, if not stored properly!

    I have all the respect and admiration for those on here and in general in the car hobby who can take a car like Carl's 70 Stage 1 and transform it into a masterpiece. Takes a lot of time, dedication, patience, and of course lots of cash!

    But to me personally, war wounds, scratches and dents, i just love original or close to original cars. They can only be original once, like a time capsule. And over the last 10 years i have seen the market go for survivors and wagons. And now 4 door cars, late 70s colonnade cars as well as the 80s G bodies are just on fire. Mark my word it will continue as so many 60s muscle cars are just priced too high for the average hobbyist!
     

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    Smokey15 likes this.
  8. SHERWOODSTAGE1

    SHERWOODSTAGE1 Well-Known Member

    I love this topic ! As I do bodywork/restoration and love a killer straight bodywork, super flat wet sanded paint, etc , I also deeply appreciate and love survivor cars ! This means with some paint/body imperfections to be expected on a 40-50 year old car .
    My strong opinion on what can be classified as a " survivor " : 1. Absolutely must be most if not all orig paint (panel or blend OK ) . Full repaint , survivor is out the window !!!!!!
    2. Absolutely must be matching numbers engine , don't care if it is low miles or 50,60,70k , but should not have been rebuilt ( bored,pistons,rings,bearings) .
    3. Wearable maintenance items OK , tires,brakes,hoses,etc is expected and accepted .
    4. Trans replace , give it a pass , as long as the car being orig paint , and still moving around under its power from the engine installed from the factory that is not rebuilt therefore the miles on the body are matched to the exact miles still on the un-rebuilt engine .
    5. Interior : rather see a small rip in a seat , a rip in the headliner , and crack on dash rather than putting new interior . These are the expected signs of a 40-50 year old car .


    However , most people are still going to throw around the word "survivor" very loosely .
     
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  9. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    46buick706.jpg.JPG
    This car when I owned it was a "survivor", warts and all; original paint, original chrome, original motor that had never been pulled apart, original interior that was starting to fray and come apart. This was an Arizona car, and was original down to the 1/8" of shale in the motor. It ran like a Swiss watch and still drove reasonably well. Even the brake shoes were the originals; - just relined. The car was at the point where some very hard decisions had to be made, restore it to showroom with original materials for a large fortune, or take a bath on the value and make it look good and overhaul and modernize the driveline. I opted to get rid of it because I couldn't afford to do the car justice and give the stock resto it deserved.
    I traded it off for my Wildcat 3 years ago, I have no idea what happened to it and would prefer not to know.
     
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  10. 1972Mach1

    1972Mach1 Just some M.M.O.G. guy.....

    My "survivor" '70 Caddy. Mostly original paint, original numbers matching powertrain, interior, and even all the glass. The wheels and a hidden non intrusive stereo are the only mods, and I have the original wheels and caps and the factory am/fm radio are still hooked up and functioning, Everything but the clock works. Has some minor rust, very small dings, nicks, and a couple small cracks in the door panels, but has documented 88k miles and i drove it to Vegas and back with no issues.....hoses and belts are Napa replacements, has a Pertronix distributor conversion and an aluminum radiator. I still consider it one because what I did was needed and is totally reversible. Original parts are all in storage.

    caddy.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  11. rkammer

    rkammer Gold Level Contributor

    Nice Caddy, really nice. I bet you could put a queen size mattress in that trunk and make it into a "Caddy Camper". :D
     
    1972Mach1 likes this.
  12. My3Buicks

    My3Buicks Buick Guru

    My take on it is original paint, original interior, original under the hood except for maybe some maintenance items. If it's been painted even once years ago, had the interior redone etc. it's no longer a survivor car. The 11 k mike Electra I sold last year was a survivor car.
     

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  13. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    If it were repainted in the original color(s) and the car is very old, I would consider a paint job to be maintenance. Paint doesn't last forever.
     
  14. rmstg2

    rmstg2 Gold Level Contributor

    Survivor, barn find, etc. to me is what the person uses to describe a car as they see it, to call someone wrong if they use a term to describe a car that someone else doesn't agree with is fruitless and detracts from the basis of the conversation. Survived as original to me would describe an untouched vehicle that has nothing done but maintenance and John has a good point that a paint job could be considered maintenance. How could a vehicle that is still around and usable not be a survivor? When my bride took possession of her Grandparents 49 Packard it was totally original, paint, interior, running gear, the whole ball of wax. It has since been repainted the original color and the seats redone in mohair and the carpet replaced, that's it. It is still here after 69 years and it runs and drives. "Survivor"

    Bob H.
     
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  15. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    A museum piece is a true "survivor". It's only ever factory original once, and anything done to it that takes it away from showroom condition counts as points against. This is the purest definition of the term. It's just like old coins or old antiques; anything that removes, strips, repairs or reconditions ruins the original patina and drops the value accordingly. There is a reason why people pay a stupid amount of money for a low mileage car in totally stock condition. Sure, it can be rebuilt to the same standard or as is usually the case, even better than new. That's not "original", that's "restored" or "reconditioned".
    A car that has been rebuilt with original spec equipment or brought back to factory showroom spec is one that has been restored to it's original design state, but it is not in original condition anymore.It has survived only by virtue of being rebuilt.
    Paint can be considered maintenance; but it would detract because it is not a preserved factory finish. A car that has had nothing done to it and is rolling on the original equipment down to the fan belt is "original". Yes, the argument can be made that belts, alternators, brakes etc are routine maintenance and therefore "acceptable", but to an appraiser who is looking for originality and evaluating a car's value based on the fact that it is "original" will take points off for that. "Original" is just that, and most if not none of our cars would qualify. An original car probably would not run anymore or even roll because the tires would be rotten. Look at most museums, they have original cars in them, and they don't work and in most cases exhibit a lot of wear and tear.
    It becomes a question of where you draw the line. Almost anything that isn't in a landfill or crushed into a coffee table is a "survivor". I am a survivor too, I'm not dead yet. That's why I prefer the term "original" to "survivor", it's a lot more clear.
     
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  16. CJay

    CJay Supercar owner Staff Member

    How about a "just barely survived" class? :D
     
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  17. GSXER

    GSXER Well-Known Member

    A car that still looks good with all its parts as it left the factory except for maintenance items.If your interior been chewed by rats and tranny replaced under warranty and rust holes well sorry the car didn't survive in my opinion.
     
  18. dl7265

    dl7265 No car then Mopar

    Exactly. I see cars with visible Rust, pitted up bright work.. To have "survived" it should be in Good condition. These are your barn find cars that should be called Un-restored, and are cool, but they did not " survive anything.
     
  19. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Oh but they did, they survived the car crusher or shredder at any scrap or junkyard!
     
    rmstg2 likes this.
  20. jay3000

    jay3000 RIP 1-16-21

    My 88 Jeep Cherokee survived "cash for clunkers" :D
     

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