I have a crank scraper on my 455. It is supposed to keep the oil from clinging onto the spinning crank. I understand that. My question is what happens to the oil that is draining back from the top of the motor? I have seen many pictures of BBBwith external oiling lines. Can anyone enlighten me on this. Thanks Mike
It's a MAJOR source of parasitic drag! Think of waving your hand or attempting to run thru water waist deep when you're in a pool or at the beach.......same thing, it takes extra effort and that equates to you not making the horsepower you could be making if that drag were not present!:ball: Believe it or not, aerodynamics are very present and do play a part in an engine too.:Smarty: This proceedure ensures that oil draining back to the pan is not allowed to flow over the spinning cam and crank. "Buick Bob" Gilleiand(sp?) has shown a dyno confirmed 25-30HP gain with the external drain lines and filled lifter valley modifications alone.:TU: Hope this helps.......
a word of caution.. Be advised: external lines for returning oil to the pan are a race motor only application. More than 1 motor has "bought the farm", with these types of "trick mods" when the oil pickup sucked air, due to the fact all the oil was somewhere other than the pan. Be careful here.. Now Kerry, I know your running 14 quarts of oil or something like that, but I would be very careful on montoring the oil level in the pan of your street motor, when you get that together. I saw those pics that you posted a while ago, and I am concerned that you may not have enough venting for the bottom end, thus slowing the drainback of oil considerably, unless your tapping the block/pan with scavanging lines, and running a dry sump system. But your mods don't indicate this. I would prolly drill a few more holes thru the devcon... if I were you. It was not at all uncommon to have valve covers full of oil, when the returns were blocked in the head, and lines were put in from the head back to the pan. I have heard stories of engine failures from having the block lifter valley filled also. Every one of these was due to inadaquate oil drain back. I have heard this story many times. I prefer to limit the amount of oil to the upper end, and then do use a custom windage tray and pan on the higher $$ motors. It's a different approch, instead of figuring out what to do with the oil once it is up there, try an keep it out of there in the first place.. Thus minimizing the drag losses from returning oil to the pan, keeping all the oil where it's needed, and not having to fill the block up with any more heavy material. The windage screen mod is worth 10HP, *and* 10psi of oil pressure... dyno tested, on a 5800 rpm 500+ hp street motor. JW
Hi Guys, Jim.......I don't doubt the failures at all. I've taken extra precautions to avoid the above mentioned clogged lines and such. Those lines are not the only way the oil will be returning to the pan. I also have two 3/4" holes up front behind the timing chain in the "void" of the block slightly below dead level with the epoxy (as I know the block sits at a 5* angle back) and one other 1" hole in the very back of the epoxy between the two drain lines to help insure not pooling. Now with that I know it does sit dead center above the cam so I will experience a little of the drag I was referring to in my last post but sometimes we have to sacrifice, right?o No: This pic should show the "extra" hole I'm referring to in the rear and notice that there is a purposeful depression around it to funnel the oil too.......:TU:
So Jim what would you do in my shoes......maybe pre-'70 lifters and pushrods with restricted metered external lines feeding the shafts of my TA roller rockers? My bottom end does/will include a custom windage tray and aluminum oil pan by SRE. Thanks for your help.....:TU: Oh, here's the front drain holes pic......
ok! I think with those extra holes, you will be just fine Kerry. I am a big fan of 430 heads, and then drilling the RH deck of the 455 to feed the rocker shafts that way.. the 4 bolt main 455 factory block had this mod, and is the only 455 I have ever seen with this hole from the factory. It's a touchy proceedure, that I would have done in a large overhead drill press, but it makes it real easy to restrict the oil to the heads. I am sure you can figure that one out. I doubt the new ST1 Alum heads will have the provisions to oil that way, so unless your running a solid flat or roller, the only thing you can do is restrict it at the pushrods. On solid cam stuff, we weld up the holes in the side of the lifter body, and redrill with a .015 drill bit... now there is a time consuming proceedure, but this was first done by Mike on his wagon, and it does work well. By the way, I spoke with Mike earlier today, and the first set of the STG 1 alumn heads are now fully machined... he said he feels these are the "prettyiest" heads he has ever done. He is working on getting me some pictures, and we will be doing some banner ads for him on this site. These heads are going to be a major step forward for "hot street" motors, and Mike has an engine going together with one of the first sets now. The introduction of these heads is a good indication of the commitment Mike has to getting projects like this done, even if he has to fully fund them by TA, hoping to get his money back, which in a small community like ours, can be really risky. I know he spend a good deal of time "getting them right". JW
Thanks Jim and Kerry I understand about the lose due to the oil clinging. What I was asking is does the oil have to drain back only on one side due to the scraper being attached to the side of the block. There are no holes for the oil to drop into the pan on that side. Does it get picked up the oil and thrown it against the other side of the block, due to the rotation of the crank? I don't recall what the clearance is from the crank to the scraper, but I know that it wasnt more than a 32nd of an inch. Thanks guys Mike
Mike, Prolly very little oil actually runs down the insides of the block, most of the stuff coming back from the upper end just falls straight on the spinning cam and crank, and then gets sprayed into the oil pan, and all over the walls.. So in answer to your question, yes, anything trapped above the scraper will have to "take a ride" to get back to the sump. That's why most of us use a windage tray now. Also because it strips the oil, with out being a "brick wall" like the scraper is. JW
JW-Crank Scraper No Good? Questions for Jim: Hi Jim, Are you saying that the crank scraper actually is a detriment rather than an aid?Would i be better off removing my crank scraper?I was led to believe that they would really help out,i think i heard that the crank scraper tends to make it hard to keep your oil pan from leaking,i know mine was dripping some,any merit to that? Maybe a street motor doesn't really need the crank scraper or windage tray either one? What exactly does the windage tray do for you? Thanks,Jeff
Jeff, What scrapers/windage trays are doing, is removing a portion of the "blanket" of oil that gets wrapped around the spinning crank/rods assembly. A crank scraper sheers this oil blanket off the crank, but that particular design does offer some drag. I am sure it is less than having a huge mass of spinning oil in the crankcase, but have no hard data as to the loss/gain ratio with this part. A windage tray is much more efficent at doing this, since a good one has hundreds of little louvers to catch the oil.. and those do work.. like I said before 10HP and 10 PSI of oil pressure... the HP is from the loss of drag, the oil pressure is from a reduction in airation of the oil. Is the scraper a detriment??... I doubt it, but as with many of the products sold for "easy home installation" it is not always the best thing to do a particular job. When you approch a new product, and want to sell a bunch of them to MA and PA Buick, then installation ease is a key concern, often at the expense of what your really trying to accomplish with the product. Windage trays required modified oil pans, and those are expensive... I only put them in motors that the customer wants all the HP we can get for them, and certainly don't reccomend it for all street motors. Yes, improperly installed, it can create a leak. And anything that "requires" silicone... better be doing a damn good job.. JW
Hi Guys, Jim.......Thanks! I was wondering about a custom pushrod with a smaller than "normal" oil passage thru it. Any thoughts on your part to properly doing this??o No: What about when I order TA's custom chrome-moly pushrods that I have the pressed end drilled much smaller than they are normally sold with?o No: I will say that I do not have the invested time or day-to-day experience building these that you do...but....with my health being what it is, it does give me quite a bit of time to think about it and let my imagination run wild!:grin: Great news to hear about the STG1 aluminum's being so close to being released! Come to think of it I need to call Mike and see how my STG3's (to replace my stolen ones) are coming along. I ordered and payed for them back in July.:TU: Thanks again for an insight.......
Jim I have a 7qt pan. Do you sell the windage trays? Are they welded into the pan? What would you charge to install same? Do you have any pictures of the trays? Thanks Mike
Mike, Sure, here is a pic for you. This could be adapted to an aftermarket pan, I made a custom one-off pan for this motor, but in the future, plan on using an aftermarket one, unless I am building one for one of those SA guys.. to make it more "stock"..:Brow: This is custom fabrication from a stef's kit.. PN 1495 if I remember correctly... plan on the kit setting you back about $100. Yes, I may be able to do something with your pan, but I would have to see it to tell you how much, and if it is possible. This is for a non-girlded motor.. I am working on one, to attach to the existing windage tray holes for the girlded motors. JW
Yep, Call Mike up, and see if that would be possible. I typically have brazed up the ends of the pushrods, and then re-drilled them.. another time consuming process, but it let me use the pushrods that I had on hand, for that particular motor. In my opinion, limiting the oil to the upper end , and then using a lifter bore girdle to strengthen the lifter valley is the way to go... I am of the opinion that the TA lifter bore girlde, will do more to strengthen the block longitudinally, than filling the galley will... simple physics dicate that because that big chunck of iron is actually bolted to the ends of the block, and is mounted higher up than the fill would be, indicate to me that it may be of more value. But I have not done a cad stress analysis on it either.. just some figgurin'... Then add in a vac pump, to take the air in the crackcase out of the equation. I don't believe that there will be enough oil bleed around the roller lifters, and coming back from the heads, to really cause a huge concern, and quite frankly a decent amount of oil thrown off the rods does wonders for cam, and cylinder bore lubrication. And filling any space that is occupied by oil, with any type of material that could possibly flake off.. just gives me the willies.. I heard a couple of stories of devcon in the oil pan... :eek2: But, just my opinions.. JW
All I can say is stay far away from anything to do with Buick Bob G. That guy screw me for alot of money plus blew up my new motor and swapped my new Stage 3 heads for his used ones. The guy is bad news and he will never show his face at any major Buick event ever again. He is dead in the Buick community!!!
Ooops, Sorry John.......didn't mean to strike a nerve!:spank: I can say that I've never personally dealt with him, only read of some of his past accomplishments with his car and what others have said and I have glanced at his website a time or two. Again I'm sorry to hear about your past experience with him.....
