any of you reckon this'd work on a 350 if you put a 1987 3.8 front cover on it? http://www.msdignition.com/mag_1.htm should be more reliable than the OEM turbo buick crank sensors.. another step in the EFI direction.... now I wonder if a sequential EFI setup, like FAST, would still require some type of cam sensor? If it did, i would expect that the turbo buick cam sensor would fit, and with a Casper's cap, work nicely... don't ya think? one coil per plug :Brow: :3gears:
The covers aren't the problems as yes a V6 cover will bolt up to the 350 block its the balancer bolt pattern. I don't know if the balancer has the same bolt pattern and another problem is that the EFI Turbo V6 with the exception of the 84 all used serpentine belt systems and there for have a totally different balancer design than the V-belts which is likely the same. The OEM crank sensors aren't unreliable at all, just about everyone still runs a stock unit even with a FAST, DFI, XFI, BS3..... all but the TEC3 and some few people running the MSD magnets on Stage II race motors with the before mentioned systems use the stock sensor still or the updated "quickstart" system which has another set of rings for faster crank sync. The cam sensor is the unreliable piece of the sensors, excluding the MAF but most people are using later GM MAF's now anyway, but you'd not need that for an aftermarket system unless you went with a MoTec M800 and wanted a MAF like I would. The cam sensor does bolt right in and the Casper's cap does adress some of the failures of the stockers, especially the ones that are from autoparts stores. As a side note, because the cam sensor works for the 350 directly its just a gear change away from being usable on the big block if someone wants a sequential system. As for your coil per plug concept, only if you used an FAST EDist system, the TEC3r, or a MoTec system. Last I checked XFI and BS3 don't support coil on/near plug directly. I'm working on, very slowly since I'm not commiting any money to it now, on figuring out atleast mentally on how to get an LS1 computer system to run a Buick V8. I would ofcourse require a lot of editing to get rid of the unneccisary emissions junk and such but you should be able to put together a sensor package that would work. The basic core would be either a special converted distributor with a modified LS1 cam sensor pickup and magnet trigger and a TEC3 crank trigger wheel because unlike the hall based sensors of the Turbo6 the LS1 actually uses a crank angle sensor with a toothed wheel on the rear counterweight. The TEC3 wheel uses a simular if not identical sensor setup and is offered with ignition modules that will run CO/NP. Right now I'm focusing on getting an L67 supercharged V6 computer system to run a Turbo6.
the serp belt system bolts right up from the turbo6.. the serp pully bolts right up to the 350's harmonic balancer as well (meaning the bolt pattern's are the same... if they weren't i could maching holes in the sensor ring in the correct paces).. now, i'm interested in learning more abou these sensor possibilities and you seem to be much more well-versed in these things... so, what WOULD i need to run a sequential EFI setup on a 350?... would this crank sensor be a required piece of the puzzle? (sorry if i missed something here... only place for me to type is at work dodging the boss's watchful eye) learn me please :grin: :beer
For a full SEFI system you need a crank and cam signals. The 2 major types of sensors are the hall effect which the MSD flying magnet is one and there is the stock system which uses the interruptor rings to sheild the sensor from the magnet in the middle unless there is a window. This system is time based so the engine takes the tach signal and the times how far after the known window the engine is to calculate the crank position. The other is a TEC3 and later GM (Northstar, LSx, 3.5 and 3.4 DOHC V6's) type systems which use toothed wheel that trips the sensor at regular intervals and has missing teath that signify where on the crank the tooth is since it counts the tooths and directly calucates crank angle. Since the crank rotates at twice cam speed the computer needs to know which cycle the engine is on so there is a cam sensor that simply trips when its a certain postition on the cam rotation comes up and most are hall effect either a flying magnet or an interupter ring setup.
what about using one of these guys ignition setups: www.getfuelinjected.com the guys at hotrod magazine (september 2006) had a twin turbo engine (not LSx frame) built with 1 coil per plug ignition using these guys ignition system. engine built by www.nelsonracingengines.com for their project F-bomb o No: similar to that ring with teeth setup you were talking about... except bolted to the balancer
That is the TEC3 and TEC3r systems. They do have the CO/NP system available but its speed density. I like the GM factory system which has a MAF for measuring bulk air movement and a MAP for manifold behavior. This system allows the engine to make desicions about how much air got in and when its getting to the usable places. There is a programmer out there called HPTuners that does most GM OBDII vehicles that is sounding more and more tempting though I am attempting to find out if they offer support for some critical bits of V6 tuning though before I slate myself to buy one. Also a nice thing about the LS1 computers is that they can be programed for T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, and the new 6L80E transmissions on board with no external box.
I think you guys are on to something and I'm listening. I'm going to read that a few more times now....
*i could be wrong*, but i believe when i went to their site i read that their system has outlets or capacity to utilize a MAF and MAT sensors anlong with their 3bar MAP sensor... o No:
I think you are since I can't find any mention of MAF capabilities on thier site. However since I can't find the CN/OP stuff either its possible.
hey bob, could you send me some info and pictures of your '69 special's setup? what i want to put my performance 350 in would be my '68 skylark custom 4-door :3gears: :eek2: slpr, the spped density setup seems to work for tom nelson of nelsonraicing engines... 1500 HP twin turbo smallblock idiling at 700 rpm o No: THOUGH i am new to this stuff wes
I'm not scared of it, I just think its better suited to racing type motors since its not as flexible without programming. There are somethings thought that require it, like individual stack injectors or the use of most 4-bbl style TB's. I think an LS1 computer system would be perfect for a V8 Buick though there are certain obsticals you'd have to overcome and if need be you can actually program it for Speed Density using a 2.5 or 3-bar MAP using the HPTuners stuff. Too bad they suck for stuff for the V6 compared to thier V8 offerings.
The Gen III LS1, LS2 & LS6 all use a different firing order (1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3) than our V8 Buicks (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2) do. So it's not just a simple swap...
so cross wire the coils and injectors to get the firing order and injectors on the right holes... simple as that.
These guys beat me to it in kit form atleast, but its a production GM Gen III Small block system modified for use on older carberated motors. They have an existing Buick 400-430-455 System for $3950, not cheap but its a full kit, intake, injectors, rail, TB, sensors, computer, even a fuel pump. Custom tuned aswell. I think you could do it cheaper but if you don't know how to tune a car this is much much easier. I'll still work on my own but these guys are proof that you don't have to have a crank sensor and that a trigger type distributor will work as a cam sensor.
cadillac's 4.9L v8 has both a mag pick up and a hall effect switch in there hei type dist and the 4.9 is muti port seqencial fuel injected
yep on the signals. the mag pickup was right in the bottom of the dist. no mech or vac advance either.
How would you rate this on a 455 set up if someone wants only about 375-400 hp in their regal....*has to hide from these forums has gotten bit by the modding bug and is going to go broke from ideas* you guys are very knowledgable in all of this
I'd rate this as low on the list unless you are going for max gasmileage and want to fool with getting this to work properly. A better investment would be a built TH200-4R and a nice high power ignition system. EFI isn't going to make or loose you peak horsepower and probably won't get you much more in the total under the curve but it will make your engine work more efficiently. Unless you drive the car near daily its probably not worth the expense for that kind of a near stock build on the motor. A TBI unit would be more up your alley.
