Continuing with Wilson's problematic 72 Skylark

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by Esasky's85GN, May 12, 2016.

  1. 70 GMuscle

    70 GMuscle Plan B

    I asked about timing and you kept avoiding it
    That is it
    Sucks about the burnt valve sorry
    Good luck on the upgrades
    Gotta make it faster then
     
  2. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!


    Wasn't avoiding, just never got to it until recently.

    Guess that's what you get when someone else builds motor. Buy another person's issues but knew there were issues going into it. I feel bad for original owner because this motor was apparently built by a well-known Buick builder down South.

    Thanks. I appreciate that.

    Just want to drive the car at this point but snow will be here soon. Going to try to use winter to get her back together the right way.
     
  3. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Mike has built alot of engines and more Buicks than most, he has always done our stuff, and will continue to do so. No one's perfect but he is very good IMO .
     
  4. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Definitely understand that no one is perfect.

    Found some interesting things this evening that are really concerning. Lots of vertical score marks in cylinder walls. Some i can catch with my fingernail, some i can't.

    When I pulled off the fuel pump, the FP lever was worn away on the onboard side. Looks like FP lever was making contact with the timing chain.

    When I pulled the oil pan, the oil pump pickup had a whole bunch of crud, lint from red shop towels, and... A razor blade!

    Somethings telling me that the fuel pump lever shavings got into the oil and scored the walls.

    Sigh.... wondering if this motor is even worth it now. Seems to me it may need a rebuild; something I wasn't looking forward to.
     
  5. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    I would suggest , doing exactly that, winter is coming up, so pull the engine and get it to builder, A mess like you describe didn't leave Wildcat like that I assure you. But , and don't take this wrong way, don't half ass it , don't band aid it and don't rush it, pull the engine, clean the frame ,firewall etc detail etc while it's away maximize your down time and have it done correctly. It will save you many headaches in the future. JMO
     
  6. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Hugger,

    That's probably going to be the direction I am going to go. I am sure that it didn't leave Mike's place like that. I am wondering how the fuel pump lever came in contact with the timing chain though. The chain is a double roller and there isn't much room for the lever squeeze through.

    Just doing a quick measurement on the bore (didn't have a bore gauge, used digital calipers), it seems that this motor has already been punched out 30 over. With some of these scratches, the chances of having to get the motor bored again are pretty strong. If that's the case, would it be worth attempting to bore it another .008 and using the TA pistons of just going to .040" and using Speed Pro pistons?

    I know that cheap and Buick don't go together but I can't spend a bunch of cash on this motor. I have too many other irons in the fire and frankly, the wife, although a gearhead herself, is starting to not like this car because of the issues.

    I have to get the heads looked at as well because I am feeling confident that an exhaust valve $hit the bed on #6. I was getting a "put-put" on that cylinder from the very beginning.

    The cam and lifters (TA 212) look to be in decent shape. Mirror finish is still there and can definitely tell that lifters were rotating in bores.

    Would like to re-use whatever I can to make it as easy on the wallet as possible without chancing the reliability of the motor.

    Guess I wont know what kind of game plan I need to have until I get the motor completely tore down.

    Chris
     
  7. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    That is a very well known problem. The double roller chain can contact the fuel pump arm. The fix is very easy. All you do is use a round file to oblong the fuel pump bolt holes enabling you to move the pump forward. Maybe the previous owner put his own fuel pump on and neglected to do this? Anyone who builds Buick engines would know this.



    I would check with JW about using the Diamond pistons and going .038 over if necessary.

    http://www.trishieldperformance.com/470--what-and-why-.html
     
  8. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Hey Larry,

    Yeah, The FP doesn't have the mounting holes opened up. The previous owner did have another person install the motor.


    One would assume that if Mike @ Wildcat (original builder of this 455) punched out the motor 30 over, that he probably did just that and milled the block to achieve the zero deck clearance? I didn't take notice when rotating the engine whether or not the piston came to the top of the deck or was recessed like Buick originally designed.

    Does anyone know if Mike @ Wildcat is on here? Maybe an email address or is it easier to speak to him over the phone? Would love to pick his brain on this motor... if he can remember a motor build from 13 years ago. :)

    Chris
     
  9. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    I wouldn't assume the motor was 0 decked, there are lots of builds that don't, and if you read that link I provided for you, it explains why that is so.

    Here is Wildcat Performance's Facebook page,

    https://www.facebook.com/wildcatengines/ 229-896-1566

    Give him a call.

    Looks like mike is no longer at Wildcat. https://www.facebook.com/mike.laciura
     
  10. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    I did read the link. Maybe I mis-interpreted what it said. I will re-read again.

    I reached out to him on FB. See if he responds.
     
  11. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    To sum it up, the pistons most commonly available out there had a compression distance that put them down in the cylinder without milling the block excessively, and milling costs are substantial. This motor was done 13 years ago, before these particular Diamond pistons were commonly available? How likely do you think it is that this motor was 0 decked?
     
  12. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Yeah, highly unlikely. :)

    I tell you what though. I definitely think the heads were decked. Motor has adjustable pushrods in it and I tried using the Felpro intake gaskets on it and that got me no where. The intake bolts were hitting the inside of the manifold holes really bad.

    And for some reason, Someone ground off some of the surface area on my Edelbrock intake where the water port from manifold and head meet up. Front water port on drivers side of intake. I bolted up the intake onto that head separately and there is no reason why this should have been ground off.

    Crazy stuff going on.... :-(
     
  13. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Sounds like you have the heads off and the pistons are still in the block, what do the top of the pistons look like, how far down in the hole are they @ top dead center? Do they have a full circle dish in them or do they have a quench pad with valve clearanced machined in them?

    If they are the crappy cast or Speed-Pro forged "stock" replacement type pistons WAY down in the hole, consider upgrading to new forged pistons of some sort. Either the JW pistons or if because of bore size you need to go another way the AutoTec BBB pistons that can be customized to whatever size the bore cleans up to with just having it machine shop honed all the same. If they're still the crappy full circle no valve relief dished pistons but the block was zero decked, go for the AutoTec pistons because the compression distance is also customizable for the same price unless your plans are for a lot of racing, if that is the case contact JW and have him set you up with a set of pistons.

    If you have really nice aftermarket NON-Speed-Pro type pistons already, you can have the block honed all the same to the worst hole then send out the pistons to have them coated;

    http://www.line2linecoatings.com/

    "Abradable Powder Coatingsā„¢ improve the efficiency of blowers, compressors, engines, pumps, etc., by safely reducing operating clearances. The coatings can be applied very thick and sometimes provide an interference fit when a device is assembled. During initial operation, the coating breaks in to form a perfect fit between mating parts. Controlled abrasion even accounts for thermal and torque related distortions in components as the coating wears in. Once the optimum fit is achieved, stresses on the coating are reduced and the break-in process stops. Durable, low friction, anti-scuff properties of the coating maintain tighter operating clearances and higher efficiency for the life of the device."

    This coating can be applied as little as .0007" to as much as .020" thick! Totally worth it if you already have a nice set of pistons and the block needs bored more. I wouldn't recommend it if you have the cheap crappy "stock" replacement or Speed-Pro forged pistons, better off upgrading pistons. This would cost around $240 to coat a set of pistons, everything I have heard about this coating is all good, from high boost engines to mild street engines, this coating helps improve ring seal among other advantages listed in the website. GL




    Derek
     
  14. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Spoke to Mike today, he's still at it, and I will be taking him a block here very shortly for my car
     
  15. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Derek,

    Full circle dish piston. @ TDC, about .040 to .050" down in the cylinder. The pistons are marked .040 so this thing has been bored 40 over.
     
  16. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Hugger,

    Sent him a message on FB. he never responded to me.

    So he's still @ Wildcat then?

    I doubt he will remember this motor. He built it for original owner like 13 years ago or so.
     
  17. hugger

    hugger Well-Known Member

    Just need to call him, he's not big on advertising let alone social media. He may not remember it and even if he did not much can be done but he is extremely fair and will go out of his way to help
     
  18. rcolosi

    rcolosi Gold Level Contributor

    Just an FYI...yup...he's still there. I was at his shop today. Keep in mind he is VERY busy, does a lot of work in the racing sect, so if doesn't get back to you right away, it's not a sign that he's ignoring you. He's a super guy to deal with.
     
  19. Esasky's85GN

    Esasky's85GN Car Poor!

    Gents,

    Just a little update on the 455. Found out the motor has been bored out 40 over.

    I pulled #1 piston to see what the cylinder and piston looked like. Can definitely tell there are not many miles on this motor, but there is damage.

    #1 rod bearing doesn't look pretty at all. The Babbitt is cloudy and you can see score marks. the journal looks good though so that's a good thing.

    #1 piston has some wear as well. One of the skirts has abnormal wear on it. the material isn't "smeared" per say, but its definitely messed up. Pics for your opinions:

    Cylinder #1 shows the same marks and seems to have an edge at the bottom of the wall. Almost like its not concentric.

    Hoping I can salvage the pistons and get the block honed but not sure. I would rather not go any bigger than the current 40 over bore.

    Sigh..... anyone have a BBB for sale? :-(

    Chris
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    That's some pretty decent scuffing.
    Are you taking it to a machine shop to have the bores checked verses piston diameter?
     

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