Concours judging guidelines

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by rkammer, Sep 28, 2020.

  1. Duane

    Duane Member

    Just as a fair warning, if you put a tissue dispenser in your show car while I am judging it, you will need a tissue.
    Duane
     
  2. rkammer

    rkammer Gold Level Contributor

    I really appreciate all the comments. I've been attending GS Nats for about 35 years with only a couple of misses. I've almost always been in the shows but never with a car I wanted judged. Since my GS is a frequent driver I doubt I'll ever get serious enough to even think about a Gold but might want to have it judged just to get my feet wet to a new experience. We'll see next May. Thanks again for all the comments.
     
  3. Duane

    Duane Member

    If you look at it like you are doing, then it will be a worthwhile outing.

    I have seen too many people throwing a fit about a deduction or two. It's refreshing to see someone thinking about it as a learning experience.
    Duane
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  4. Dano

    Dano Platinum Level Contributor

    Is this because of it being a dealer installed option/accessory that wasn't available as a factory option and concours is only how it would've/could've rolled off the assy. line?
     
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  5. Duane

    Duane Member

    Basically yes.

    This class was designed to judge the cars as they left the factory..........however there are exceptions to every rule. The 71 black GSX comes to mind.

    It is a proven fact that the car left the assembly line with only the red pinstripes and that the gold stripes were installed at the dealership level, previous to the car being purchased. Therefore we allow that with no deductions.

    Lou's Stratomist blue "dealer installed" 71 GSX would also fit into this category, if he decided to bring it to Concours.

    The items allowed on the cars are basically all the options it "could" have come with from the factory. Now we do not check to see if any particular car came with specific options. We are only interested with options it could have come with.

    If a 71 car is shown as a GSX, then it would have to have been built within the GSX time frame, have a low body number, and have been built at Flint. A 72 GSX would not need a low body number, as some of the early ones did not have them, but it would still need to be built at Flint.

    Same thing for a 71-72 GS with a front or rear spoiler or a hood tach. They would also have to be built at the Flint plant, or deductions would be made. Those options were only available from Flint, so if a Fremont or Framingham car had them it would be a deduction.

    That is the way we judge the cars. Anything other then that must be proven to the judges as correct before it could be entered in the class and not get deductions.

    My 69 "Motion Equipped" car was one of them. I had to bring documentation to the head judge "Sid Meyer" of exactly how Motion was building cars at the time my car was being altered, and had to match the parts up to the paperwork before it could have been judged in that class. That alone took some time to put together.

    Again we take the time to know these particular vehicles to give an honest assessment. That way we do not waste your time or ours. If your particular vehicle has an unusual option, other then a Factory option, you need to prove it came that way.

    Now you made me write a book here.
    Duane
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  6. 455bigboat

    455bigboat Well-Known Member

    As far as factory accessories that you could buy at the dealer such as a tissue dispenser . They are found in the accessory section of the dealer sales manual, authorized accessory brochure, parts books, have a group and part number, and labor rate to install and pictures of each accessory and where advertised as being available for your Buick new. Many were items the factory didn’t want bothered with thus having dealer installed. Now how does that work with all that detailed documentation
     
  7. Duane

    Duane Member

    For the Concours class as written above, if you have proof the car came with them then it is up to you to prove it to the satisfaction of the judges before the car is judged.

    I would imagine either a dealership invoice or a factory, and not reproduction, window sticker would be involved.

    I have another point here. When I made up the rules for the GSCA & the BPG I made the rules a little more strict and did it for a reason. I did this to make sure the car owners would have little to no problems when they went to the BCA or AACA events.

    That is why we went for a "premium" build, so it would be easier when you went to other clubs, and to be honest it has worked out very well.
    Duane
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  8. 455bigboat

    455bigboat Well-Known Member

    Do you deduct for color change if it is painted a factory year appropriate color?
     
  9. Duane

    Duane Member

    No, and we do not deduct for different interior colors either. The only exceptions to this would be with changing an exterior/interior combination that was not available for that model.

    Even then, there are some cars out there that came from the factory with non-standard colors. They would need some type of documentation, but that is usually right on the cowl plate.
    Duane
     
  10. 455bigboat

    455bigboat Well-Known Member

    Interesting, then they would not match the trim tag, so you accept color and interior that doesn’t match what’s clearly stamped on the factory tag and how the car came from the factory but you won’t accept accessories that are clearly seen and sold in the Buick literature and sales manuals with Buick Group and part numbers. What would be the mystical “needed” documentation to support a color change that certainly wasn’t “how it left the factory”.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  11. Dano

    Dano Platinum Level Contributor

    Thx. Didn't mean for you to have to elaborate to that extent but appreciate it.

    So if I'm understating you correctly, if someone had documentation (e.g./i.e. the orig. dealer invoice showed it) that any particular accessory (e.g. right side chrome mirror, or Stage 2 heads/headers to cite 2 extremes - Or even a tissue dispenser;):)) was installed at the dealer & prior to delivery it would be allowed per this set of rules (as noted every show/org. has their own).

    Curious how you handle (somehow documentable) factory screw ups since we know they happened.
     
  12. Duane

    Duane Member

    "Interesting, then they would not match the trim tag, so you accept color and interior that doesn’t match what’s clearly stamped on the factory tag and how the car came from the factory but you won’t accept accessories that are clearly seen and sold in the Buick literature and sales manuals with Buick Group and part numbers. What would be the mystical “needed” documentation to support a color change that certainly wasn’t “how it left the factory”."

    For this class, we judge cars as how they "could" have left the Factory, not "how" they left the Factory, and will accept other then factory options at the dealership level as long as it can be proven prior to delivery. We do not carry around Color & Trim books to verify the ID plates on the firewall.

    We are not looking at it like we are buying your car, or give it a "pedigree", we are simply making sure it is period correct. You need to draw the line somewhere and this is how we did it for this class.

    "So if I'm understating you correctly, if someone had documentation (e.g./i.e. the orig. dealer invoice showed it) that any particular accessory (e.g. right side chrome mirror, or Stage 2 heads/headers to cite 2 extremes - Or even a tissue dispenser;):)) was installed at the dealer & prior to delivery it would be allowed per this set of rules (as noted every show/org. has their own)"

    That is correct. Supposedly there is another "dealership" GSX out there. It is a 70 model, but until it shows up with the paperwork to prove it, I don't believe it.

    "Curious how you handle (somehow documentable) factory screw ups since we know they happened."

    There are a few of these cars in the club as well. One car has a rear quarter panel mis-alignment. When the factory welded the quarter to the rocker panel it stuck out at the one corner and was sucked in at the other. The owner has his original "Body Shop Inspection Sheet " and it clearly documents the misalignment, and the fact that it was "bought" by Buick. During his restoration he was going to fix it, but we talked him out of it because it was so cool.

    The bottom line is this, If your car does not fit in any particular class then you can put it in another one. Each club has their own sets of rules, and often has multiple classes for vehicles. It is up to each owner to decide which class suits his car best and find out how each Club has their rules set up.

    Some cars are better suited to fit the BCA or AACA rules, others to fit the GSCA/BPG rules, all are slightly different.
    Duane
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  13. Duane

    Duane Member

    As an after thought,
    Other organizations have even "tighter" judging outlines, NCRS comes to mind. The goal of this type of judging is to give a pedigree to a vehicle. They literally spend hours on each car, and you certainly pay for the privilege. Other groups make you send them a decoded build sheet for the vehicle along with pictures of the vehicle, and they decide if the cars are good enough to even be considered by them.

    I never wanted "our" judging parameters to get that drastic. The idea was to create an event where you were not competing against each other, as in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and were building beautiful cars that looked like they just rolled off the lots back in the day.

    This type of judging adds a sense of comradery not "chest thumping" where someone gets to say their car is better then someone else's.

    I have been asked many times to "build" a 1000 point judging guideline for our cars and will not do it because there is not a car out there that would pass that type of scrutiny. The first thing I would ask to see would be the codes on the keys, to see it they matched what was correct for that year. All reproduction parts get a 50% deduction...................you can see where this is headed.
    Duane
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  14. Guy Parquette

    Guy Parquette Platinum Level Contributor

    Huh? So I could enter my Reynolds Stg2 car in the Concours class even with the modifications supplied by Buick? I have ALL the paperwork from Dennis Manner, Kenne-Bell, Reynolds, Bill Travis who specked and ordered the car, And I restored it as such with all the correct parts. Even with the original prototype parts.
     
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  15. richopp

    richopp Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Duane, again, for all the hard work you all do and have done on this. When I ordered my '72 S1, I asked about "Stage 2" and was told the parts come in the trunk and either the dealer or I had to install them--the dealer for a price, and they were not for "street" cars so I should not buy them. I did not.

    As for NCRS, you said it all. Fun bunch of people, but VERY tough on every detail. I don't think I have seen a picture of an engine stamp on their forum that was judged "original" by anyone, ever. Evidently, every C1 and C2 engine in every car is either a "re-stamp" or not original to the car. I guess they were tough on engines back then. I am not going to post mine as it was sold to me as a numbers car and looks original to me, but I am sure it will be said to be either a re-tamp or a fraud or something.

    Like I said, fun bunch of people!

    Cheers,

    Richard
     
  16. Guy Parquette

    Guy Parquette Platinum Level Contributor

    I have to correct you on the "heads come in the trunk". They never did. Plus if you think about it, I don't know if the Kustom headers that they required would fit in the trunk, maybe they would? Every Stg2 part was ordered from the parts dept. If the dealer told you that they came in the trunk, they were plainly mistaken. Mine came through Bill Trever's training center sent by Dennis Manner along with all the other prototype parts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  17. Duane

    Duane Member

    Guy,
    You certainly could have your car judged in the GSCA Concours class.

    Even though "we" know the car, I would still bring your documentation with you. Just in case there is some question about a small part or so.

    It would be judged the same way as we do Brads Prototype or my 69 Motion Equipped car.

    The question is, why haven't you done this before?
    Duane
     
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  18. Guy Parquette

    Guy Parquette Platinum Level Contributor

    Thanks Duane for the response. Interesting, I never thought it could be judged in that class because of Buicks moddifications. And that came to mind with Brads GSX. Good to know. Again Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  19. Duane

    Duane Member

    Guy,
    The AACA also has a class for race cars. They have specific requirements you need to follow but it is really wild to see something like an old "rail" getting judged.

    I had always wanted to have the Hydrogen Peroxide Rocket Powered funny car Captain America restored and judged, but it was not meant to be.
    Duane
     
  20. Dano

    Dano Platinum Level Contributor

    Thanks for the clarifications! I've heard about the '70 Dealer Installed GSX pkg. as well. The "Body Shop Inspection" report is pretty neat. I was thinking more along the lines of a car that should've gotten woodgrain on the dash but didn't and someone maybe had a early picture of the car showing it or some type of documented history on it never being apart. Misaligned GSX stripes would be a more obvious example.

    Personally, I like the balance you've struck for the most part.
     
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