Collings Foundation B-17 "Nine-0-Nine" Crashes

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by dynaflow, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    Aluminum Overcast is the '17 that I flew on. The flight was from Lawrence, Massachusetts. It was originally scheduled to be from Hanscom Field in Bedford MA, but Hanscom is operated by the Boston Port Authority and they wanted a $500 per day parking fee. The EAA then moved the flights to Lawrence.
     
  2. BennyK81

    BennyK81 Well-Known Member

    The crashed plane was a Junkers Ju-52. They have 2 more planes wich are grounded right now. Lufthansa now won't be flying her own JU-52 again. It is going to a museum.

    The only flyable Super Constellation is in Switzerland as well. It is undergoing a major redo. But they found out they have to redo both wings wich will cost north of 20 millions and the project has now been abandoned. Maybe someone buys the plane.

    It used to fly over my house several times before it was about to be restored. The sound of the 4 engines is amazing.

    We have to face that those old machines are really old and those planes flex a lot...so everything that is not reconstructed is a risk.
     
  3. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    Very sad, more so for the people than the airplane, all in all an irreparable loss.
    With every passing year one or more of these old airplanes goes out in a blaze of glory and unfortunately usually takes the crew with it. The fact that the Ju-52 isn't flying anymore is a shame, I was hoping one day to ride on one. But, like so many things from that earlier age, they weren't the most reliable or the safest.
    Soon all the Dc-3's will be down too; that was the first plane I ever got to fly, I remember that like it was yesterday.
    We lost the last flying He 111 about 10 years ago now, similar issue, an engine out right after take off. Unfortunately no survivors either.
    On the one hand, it's cool to see them still flying, even though the maintenance and costs must be horrendous. To hear those big old round engines roaring away is a sound that still runs shivers down my spine. But on the other hand, each time one of them screws up and goes down it means another piece of history lost, and of course there's the human cost which can never be assessed for the survivors.
    Maybe it is time to park them.
     
  4. bw1339

    bw1339 Well-Known Member

    The Bovington tank museum (in the UK) has the largest collection of WWI tanks, some of them in running condition. Up until recently, they used to parade a couple of them, but they found that they were deteriorating too much structurally and stopped doing it. I will never see these running.



    The French still run their two WWI tanks (which stayed the US for many years, before being returned to France). We'll see how long this lasts...

     
  5. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    There are over 300 DC-3s still flying - some are in revenue service. Certainly the day will come when there will be none still airworthy, but it ain't gonna be anytime soon. Flying a DC-3 is still on my bucket list.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  6. bw1339

    bw1339 Well-Known Member

    I remember reading somewhere that DC-3s are so overbuilt that their main structures are outside of fatigue range (!!!).
     
  7. BUICKRAT

    BUICKRAT Got any treats?

    Rumor has it that 909 was fueled with jet fuel by accident. We will see, I guess.
     
  8. Mike B in SC

    Mike B in SC Well-Known Member

    I think it was sometime in the nineties when another German two-engine bomber crashed, killing the pilot & co-pilot. The plane was flying from Spartanburg, SC, where it had been on display, to Greenville, SC. It never made it and was a total loss. I can't remember what model it was...
     
  9. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    There has never been a structural failure of a DC-3.
     
  10. dynaflow

    dynaflow shiftless...

    ...jet is essentially kero, newspaper account said NTSB lab-tested fuel sample, 100 octane avgas. Mechanical focus appears to be engine issue before takeoff...
     
    BUICKRAT likes this.
  11. Topcat

    Topcat Got TORQUE?

    We just had that happen this last week at the local airport...fueled a prop plane with jet fuel......pilot is dead.

    https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/...cle_75f48804-eb9b-11e9-8917-d776d859c038.html

    Peace WildBill

    Who ever the fueler was should be in jail....you CANNOT make a mistake like that at an airport......
     
  12. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    Putting the idiot in jail doesn't solve the problem though. I would make him/her financially liable for the accident. (I realize that the fueler wouldn't be a fueler if he/she had the money to pay for the damages). Next in line would be the company that hired the fueler. As was said before, you simply cannot make that kind of mistake. Insufficient training. Most aircraft carry placards next to the fueling point specifying the type of fuel required. I always made sure that the fueling decals on my Comanche were in good shape. I also watched the fueler whenever it was possible. It never happened to me, but I know a guy who has a TBM 850 single-engine turboprop. He told me that several times fuelers have approached the airplane with avgas trucks. He now will not allow anyone to fuel his airplane unless he is present.
     
    BuickV8Mike likes this.
  13. TimR

    TimR Nutcase at large

    Smart man. I know the smaller PT6A's like -41-42 (believe the TBM850 has the -66 in it?) could run avgas for a set amount of hours (100?) between hot sections but it was hard on things and can't imagine anyone doing it unless they are really stuck in a life/death situation.That was late 90's when I worked on those. Great engines the PT6. Some industries there is no room for error. But then again what does a fueler get paid...you get what you pay for and wages for aviation service industries are pretty sad considering all the requirements and standards.

    I seem to recall way back some of the turbo'd piston engines had "turbo" down the side of the cowling and that was all removed because fuelers kept mistaking it for turboprop and trying to use jet fuel....as for mistakes not being made well good luck with that. We have amazing standards and checks in place and yet fuelers use the wrong stuff, things get missed at inspections, instructions get misunderstood, pilots overlook something or press the wrong button, on and on it goes pretty uncommon but no way to avoid it. So yes, be vigilant. Always.

    Really sad on all those people and the B-17 crash. Pretty soon all the old planes (and cars?) will all be relegated to the museums once the social media courts go off on the topic and nobody will ever hear the amazing sound of radials at power or V12's at speed.....it rally is amazing stuff.
     
    Brian Albrecht and Dano like this.
  14. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Classic Reflections

    Bill, I get the frustration when there is a head scratching event of this nature, but what in God's name would be the charge, and what good would come of a successful prosecution? Should there be consequences and accountability for him and his employer, yes, and you know there will be.

    If you had to throw people in jail for a stupid mistake, how many of us would be free?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  15. bw1339

    bw1339 Well-Known Member

    Can't they make the nozzles incompatible for other fuel types?
     
    Brian Albrecht likes this.
  16. Mike B in SC

    Mike B in SC Well-Known Member

    9229_avgasonly_1.jpg
    They should have these stickers at the fuel caps on the plane. jet fuel.png
     
  17. Brian Albrecht

    Brian Albrecht Classic Reflections

    Sounds like fuel is not likely the cause from this preliminary report.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/october/15/new-details-of-b-17-crash-emerge

    "The report also noted that inspection of the wreckage determined that jackscrews, which actuate the flaps, were found in a position consistent with the flaps being retracted."

    Could the crew have been so caught up in the engine problems they neglected to lower the flaps? That would certainly account for what happened.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  18. dynaflow

    dynaflow shiftless...

    ...or with a power problem, did they stay clean in attempt to reach runway...
     
  19. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    That's a really good idea, but the average age of an airplane according to the FAA is 25 for commercial and 35 for general aviation. I have owned three airplanes and each had differently designed fuel fills. It is unlikely that all of these different aircraft could be retrofitted with one standard fuel filler cap/neck.
     
  20. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    Even single-engine fixed gear aircraft have pre-landing checklists. There is much more to this story then just the loss of power on one engine. That would still leave the airplane with approximately 75% power. Standard cruise on many if not most multi-engine piston airplanes is 65 to 75% power. With one engine out, that airplane should have been able to maintain level cruise until it ran out of fuel.
     

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