Cleaning 401 rockers/lifters - Dirty ?

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by RJBT, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. RJBT

    RJBT Well-Known Member

    I finally decided to be brave and take my rockers, rods and valley cover off.
    I tried to take the hydraulic lifters out but couldnt figure out how to. The shop manual just says take the cover off and then the lifters but they all seem to not want to come out vertically (towards the top) ??
    Am I supposed to take the cam out to take the lifters out through the bottom ?

    The engine is in the car and I really dont want to take the cam out (dont know how to). I assume I have to take out too much stuff and need some specific tooling (i'm doing this in a public underground parking lot as I live in a big town and found this as the best solution to leave the car still all winter !).

    Also do my cam lobes look alright ? What is the brown wear stains on them ? Is it a bad sign ?
    Everything is covered with really grimy oil. Its thick and feels like there are crumbs in it (when take between my fingers). I'd really love to take the whole engine apart but I cant (no space) so I'll try to clean as much of it as possible with paper towels so as not to have stuff fall down under the cam.
    I know this seem very amateurish but that is the best I can do right now, unless someone has some good recommendations !

    Thanks for ANY input ....

    Oh ! I forgot. I tried to take the water channel thing above the water pump off. Took the side bolts off but it wont move. How is it linked to the water pump ? I cant see anything below it .....

    Roland
     

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  2. skierkaj

    skierkaj Day 2 Street Screamer

    Wow :eek2:

    That thing is grimy!

    The lifters should pull out through the top. They do make a tool to pull them out, but I think you should be able to do it with a couple of 90 degree pick tools.

    Try to get as much of the grime off without dropping it past the cam, and then maybe run some of the engine cleaner you add to the oil. Follow the directions on the bottle; I'm sure you run it up to operating temp for about 20 minutes or so, and then drain and fill with new oil and filter.
     
  3. REM

    REM Active Member

    The lifters would come out the top easily except for the varnish built up on them below where they run in the block. It can be quite a chore sometimes to get them out. Soak with carb cleaner and penetrant helps but I don't think there is any reason to pull them unless you plan to replace them.
    I would use a shop vac to try to suck up all the crud as you scrape it loose to keep it from falling down into the engine.
    Actually you won't gain much by scraping it out. I believe I would suck out the loose stuff and clean up the rockers, push rods and other stuff that comes off and and let the rest be. Knocking that stuff loose and losing some of it down in the engine isn't the best deal. It really isn't hurting anything.
     
  4. william.ali.kay

    william.ali.kay Needs more cowbell!

    As stated, MAKE SURE you dont let any of that crud fall in the engine. You could stuff some towels or something in there to help and then use the shop vac before removing them.
    Also wondering how many miles are on that motor.
     
  5. Babeola

    Babeola Well-Known Member

    I would be worried about the pan and pick-up area in particular after looking at that top end. Sludge can and will build up around the pick up tube and choke off oil pressure slowly.

    Cheryl :)
     
  6. bhambulldog

    bhambulldog 1955 76-RoadmasterRiviera

    I agree with Cheryl. Maybe, you should drop the pan. And, clean that out, too.
     
  7. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    As far as I'm concerned, put it back together & drive it, your wasting your time. Looking at the cam lobes that can be seen it's really time for a rebuild. How about the ones that can't be seen in the pictures??? The bottom of the lifters are probably slightly concave, the reason they won't come out as well as the varnish build-up. Use a flushing additive with new oil & filter a few times, follow directions. Then change the oil & filter every 500 miles. It will dissolve all that mess slowly & won't plug the pick-up screen. Save your time, energy & $$$$ for something more productive.
    These are just my thoughts.
     
  8. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Well, I have seen worse,,,,, you can clean that stuff out, but it will take patience.... what you are looking at is a mixture of dirt, oil, and burned fuel deposits in the form of carbon , and moisture.... take paper towels and make a barrier to keep the stuff from falling down into the crank case... pack them on top of the cam but dont let them get on down in there.... keep them together dont separate them.....then get a wide blade straight screw driver and start scraping the stuff off , allowing it to collect on top of the towels.... then , once in a while suck the crud out with a shop vac... do the tops of the heads the same way....
    the rocker arm assemblies need to be soaked in simple green for 24 hours and then washed off and broken down and inspected ... and in the process remove the plugs in the ends of the shafts and run a rifle cleaning brush thru them to get the crud out of them.... the inside of them looks like the inside of the engine.... and they need to be cleaned out....
    Really that engine needs to come out of the car, be torn down and hot tanked.... in a automobile engine , there aint no substitute for clean.... buttttttt.... that can be put off , for a better time and place.... the lower part of the engine and the timing gear cover will look just like that....
    The brown stuff you are looking at is varnish that forms when a engine is running and collects on any part that doesnt rub against something....
    There is no product that you can buy that will remove that stuff by just pouring it in the engine...so dont waste your time and money on them....
    really.
    I dont see how you can keep thieves from stealing stuff off the car , if nothing else to sell for scrap metal ....
    i have told you some of the same things that the others have , but that is because we have been there and done it....
    It is actually easier to pull the engine and do this stuff, but a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do....
    The water manifold will come out by just taking a 2 lb hammer with a short handle on it and tapping it straight up... you may have to remove the power steering pump to do that... but you have already disturbed it and you will need to put new gaskets and o ring in it....
    There is a big, thick, o ring under and down in the top of the timing gear cover , if you disturb the seating on it , it will leak coolant...
    When you get the manifold off, clean it and paint it ,, then replace the o ring and glue the gaskets to the manifold with gorrilla snot... and put a coating of wheel bearing grease on the cyl head side... that way when you start sliding the manifold down into the o ring socket the gaskets will not tear up.... of course all the gaskets surfaces have to be clean and the o ring socket too.... coat the o ring and the socket it goes into, with permatex 300 before you start reseating the manifold....
    The rocker arm covers , the valley cover , and any thing else you have taken off should be cleaned and painted before you put it back....
    When you put oil back in be sure, sure, to put in zinc additive from now on .... the cam dont look all that bad right now... from the lobes that i could see....
    Welcome to the world of restoring....:Brow: :laugh:
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  9. skierkaj

    skierkaj Day 2 Street Screamer

    Good info doc.

    I've seen some people use diesel fuel to clean out an engine. Mixed it right in with the oil. Surprisingly, It did work pretty well, but I don't know how that would affect some of the gaskets or seals.
     
  10. doc

    doc Well-Known Member

    Well,,,,, I know it looks like Tom and i are disagreeing,,, but we really aint....he is right on.... it would better to put your efforts toward a total rebuild... and i think that too... but i aint walking in your shoes.... i too have had to do stuff the hard way.... Tom and I are intrested in helping you do the best you can do with this situation.... You can listen to all the guys and then make up your own mind what is best to do....but a guy with your determination , and intelligence can do this.... heck , you have the ability and mind set to do a complete rebuild yourself.... it is not a problem to be ignorant of the facts, when you run onto something you dont know about there will be some one here on the board that will educate you about it....
     
  11. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    I assume that you are going to buy a gasket set. Usually a new water manifold O ring comes with the set. If you don't get one, send me a PM. I have a stock of them and they are fresh. BTW: I use two of them. I have never had a leak. Make sure that the water manifold and the opening in the timing case are clean.
     
  12. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    I would have to agree with Tom, except for one point. Sometimes it is better to leave things alone if it isn't broken or the noises very obvious. Do not, repeat, do not run an engine cleaner in that motor, it'll clean it up too much and you'll be rebuilding it a lot sooner. If it is your intention to enjoy the car for a while before having to rebuild it, then bolt it up and drive it, do regular oil changes, but use a non-detergent oil, you do not want to be cleaning up the varnish that is literally holding that engine together. Unless you boil the motor over or lose oil pressure completely you can't really do much more damage, ( unless it flies apart) most of it has already been done. It ran reasonably well before, don't fool around with it because if you do, you'll only wind up taking it out and apart.

    That said, that engine is very filthy and looks very tired. It is time to think about a total overhaul. I've seen worse and run worse, (my Electra looked like that for about a year before I rebuilt it) but if you want to use the car at high speed you are probably going to have to rebuild it. Keep an eye on your temperature and oil pressure, buy a set of gauges and do not rely on the "idiot" lights. If when you are driving at speeds over 100 km/h and the temperature starts to climb past 100 C, and the oil pressure drops to less than 1 bar and approaches zero at idle, consider it time to do a rebuild, there are then no other options.

    Oil pressure at idle should never be less than 9 psi and temperature should never exceed 235 F. I'm not sure what the oil pressure converts to in BAR, but the temperature is 100-110 C. Normal running oil pressure at 60 km/h or more should be at least 30 psi if the engine is healthy, but can be less if the engine is old. It should never drop below 10 psi while driving though.

    Basically, the only correct solution would be to remove the motor and completely clean it and rebuild it.

    Do you have any idea of how many miles are on that motor? It certainly appears that it is very old, and could be original.
     
  13. Wildcat GS

    Wildcat GS Wildcat GS

    Put the engine back together, use the car lightly and enjoy it until you have the circumstance to do the job right. We all admire your intentions and determination but even the best of intentions will be negated by not having the proper "tools". The last thing you want to do is loosen all that buildup from where it is doing little harm and "relocate" it to where it will potentially ruin the engine around or clogging the oil pump pickup screen. Your effort has not been wasted. Now you have the knowledge that the engine needs to be removed to do justice to the car and the investment of your time. Invest your time in other areas as you will most likely do more harm than good in the engine given your circumstances. Not trying to bust your chops, just been there, done that. Best of luck!!

    Tom Mooney
     
  14. funkyriv

    funkyriv Well-Known Member

    wow, that is a very dirty engine. i'm surprised it still runs. maybe the oil was never changed. drive it until it dies
     
  15. RJBT

    RJBT Well-Known Member

    Thanks all for your help....
    I will probably try to clean a little and put it back together.
    I would love to redo all the engine but right now I have no place to do it ! So it will wait....
    I will deal with the water pump too. I dont know why but the paint off the water pump is coming off with the cooling fluid.. Is that normal ? I thought that was weird... Bad paint maybe ?

    Why is there varnish on the cams ? Are the lifters worn so that they only contact the edges of the cam (brown in the middle) ? Or does it mean that the lifters do not contact the cams because ?? of some reason ..no oil pressure ? Springs not strong enough to push lifter back ?

    I have bought a temp gauge and sending unit.... and would like to put a oil pressure gauge but I have no idea where to locate the sender ?
     

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  16. REM

    REM Active Member

    The cam and lifters are ground so the edges contact and cause the lifters to rotate dutring rotation. This keeps them from wearing in one spot.
    It is normal for varnish to build up on the cam in non wear areas.

    The oil pressure sender is located on the block below and behind the back of the right head. You could install a T and use both the light and a guage or just replace the sender with one for a guage.
     
  17. RJBT

    RJBT Well-Known Member

    Its impossible to find T fittings here in inches ... and probably difficult for me to do it on line (someone has a source ?).
    I could eliminate the dummy switch (I anted to keep it) and put a gauge. I found this one that matches my temp guage and has a sender with this dimension:
    Includes 1/8 in. NPT sender. Includes 1/4 in. NPT adapter/fitting.

    I could not find the 401 block oil pressure sender dimension. Anyone know it ?
     
  18. REM

    REM Active Member

    Not sure which but it is either 1/8 or 1/4 NPT. You should be ok with what came in the kit.
     
  19. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    1/8npt
     
  20. EEE

    EEE Straight out of lo-cash!

    Wow!

    I was going to ask if the engine in my car looked ok, but after seeing that I'm just going to assume it is.
     

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