I don't think we will be going that crazy with completely re configuring the heads, using boost we don't need crazy flow numbers. He will work his magic and they will be great. I think Scotty Brown will also do a great job with the CNC porting program.
first, lets define terms. iirc, with regards to the heads: Stage 1 ( Buick term ) == big valves, can use all stock manifolds Stage 2 ( Buick term ) == milled exhaust dogleg, requires headers Street Eliminator ( TA ) == compatible with the stock intake Track Eliminator ( TA ) == relocated runners requiring full custom intake and headers as i understand it, these are "Street Eliminator" versions of the heads. ie - stock compatible replacements. the rockers / valves have been moved but the ports and head angles are all compatible for use with factory iron parts. if there had ever been a Stage 1 350ci, these large valve heads would be it. the full on, balls out, race parts with relocated and resized runners and ports would be Stage 2 "Track Eliminator" and would require a custom intake and probably headers just like the Stage 2 TE 455ci parts. and we don't have those, yet. and may not ever. i'm not holding my breath. would i like the FULL RACE versions? hells yeah. but the larger MARKET should be for stock compatible replacement parts. and so far, TA has supposedly sold ~10 sets. if TA can't sell out a production run of <50 sets of stock compatible heads, this is all you're ever going to get boys. and, really, it's silly of you to be complaining otherwise. i understand that you want to be able to go out to the track and stomp all over LS engine cars. but TA has to satisfy a BUSINESS CASE for producing these things. and if they can't at least break even on the production costs + a little money for their time and hassle, why should they put up with you breaking their balls? they could have never produced any 350 heads at all and you wouldn't have had anything to complain about. if we sell a couple of production runs of SE heads out so that, you know, we demonstrate that there is PROFIT in making these things, TA will be eager to make all the Stg2 TE heads they can sell. and i'm sorry to say that i really don't think a market of < 20 guys is going to be enough to get anything done. unless somebody who has a machine shop just wants to mill some billet heads for shits and giggles. i've got my set on order. have you done your part? ps - now i'm wondering if we can mill the exhaust port doglegs off like what Buick did with the Stage 2 heads back in the day ...
I agree, they even call it the stage 1 street eliminator. If the heads sold like hot cakes then there would be a chance of TA making race versions but only if it made financial sense. The guys with the self proclaimed best 350s out there are just bashing the new heads without even buying them. If people want to see 350 race heads then they best get to modifying a set of the currently availabile stage 1s.
crap. that looks like we'd have to do a crazy amount of filling and milling in order to get rid of the dogleg. stop depressing me, Sean.
My point was that if TA didn't copy the factory swirl intake port and made the heads with the intake valve in the center of the port, just requiring the material between the intake and exhaust valve to be like other performance heads that they would have still had good velocity and flow 260 + CFM @ around .600" lift right out of the box like some of the other brands higher end heads do for around the same price. The above would work for the mild build guys, street/strip guys AND the all out race build guys, would just be a matter of valve sizing and level of porting or no porting for the mild builds. And also, if they casted them the way I mentioned years ago while they were still working on the casting patterns, they would of been able to make stage 2 heads out of the same castings as well. TA had a blank slate to make the intake ports on these heads, I just don't understand why they made them the same way the factory did? They would of still been able to use all the factory junk on them like they are now but would of been WAY better out of the box with more potential when ported. This isn't bashing TA, just a little constructive criticism if they want to make the next run even better?(would just need to make them solid in between the valves) I wouldn't not buy them because of the way they made them but it would save me a lot of welding when I do, that is if there is coolant between the 2 valves? If they are solid between the valves already then it would just be a matter of grinding or CNC cutting it out of the way. The reason people have been some what critical is because they know we only had one shot with how these heads would be made unlike the BBB heads that have multiple versions. They even set there own precedence with the BBB heads and made them flow out of the box as good as a well ported set of cast iron BBB heads do, so...........? Like the sbb 350 S/P intake that we only had one shot to get it right, which they seemed to do a good job on that.
the s/p is the best thing that has happened to the 350. the d/p sucked no matter what you did. when I built my s/p and took to the track, it was 'what the hell happened'. it was unbelievable. run right up to 7500, shift, it would drop maybe 500 and scream right back to 7500. another thing that no else has done was the header size we ran on it. modified sbc 2.5" headers to fit the 350. the noise became unbearable, had to wear ear protection. it was louder than the zoomies on the dragster.
Unfortunately i think these heads only solidify building a big block over a 350. At this point it's probably more expensive to build the 350 to make less hp and have worse street manners. It'll be all of 5k into the heads after purchase and then the porting to get decent numbers. The big block heads all but guarantee 500 hp out of the box.
Well, no sh*t. That extra 105 cubes goes a long way. But for those that WANT a 350, these heads are for them.
All of this talk is why I thought they heads should outflow my ported stock heads. If the flow does not matter then why have them ported more or have someone do a CNC program How about putting them on, put those turbos on and see what you got why all the extra porting and maxing them out Is this just to be the best one here or trying to promote the heads.
burek did my heads and intake 13yrs(?) ago. cost was $2200. I have about $25,000.00 in my engine. you read that right, 25k. but that is a total of everything being done for 13 yrs. if the block blows up, probably a fire sale on engine parts as I could not do another engine like this one. would I do again...…..yup, only I would build it a lot more up. right now if an when we hit at least 8.500, then its coming out and I will build a twin v6 dragster just to see how it would work.
I guess I need to spend more money I spent 8 grand 25 yrs ago to have my motor built including parts I replaced everything in the engine. The reason I never tried to get the car to go to the 12 sec range is simple, it wasn't going to do it. I have a very tight suspension from the HO Racing parts with the solid bushings and big sway bars along with the 77 Camaro spindles. My car handles like a Camaro so part of this is what slows me down on the big end. My tires tuck in when you jack it up in front. The motor ran so good there was just no need to tweak it. I was very consistent on my times and in bracket racing you have to be consistent. My 60 fts were the same all the time and I could almost run on my dial in. I think the 13.31 I ran along with a couple of 13.40's was about all she had because after that weekend I went back to running in the 13.50 range and stayed there for a very long time until I change the trans and TQ convertor then it ran 13.60 all day long. (2004r & 3000 stall) So I actually slowed down a little by using the 3000 stall over the 3500 stall I had in there This is why my self and gsjohnny say you need a 3500 stall to get the big car moving because that 350 does not get going till you hit 3500. Flash to 4 grand off the line and the 60 ft is at the right place to be out front of the big block cars. otherwise you lose. The nitrous makes this engine a whole different animal and it does not take more than a 75 shot to knock off a second and a half. I am running a 31 fuel jet along with a 37 nitrous jet with 6lbs of fuel pressure and 28* timing total. It is not much nitrous to take a second and a half away. Went from 13.87 to 12.31 same day. 1.95 60 ft to a 1.66 60 ft. So those new heads with some nitrous should make the engine scream and If I had Demko's motor I would be down at Summit Racing getting me a Nitrous kit and run a 11.80 The extra 500 on the stall I don't think is going to do much for him but we will see. If you want to do this 350 justice put in a 2004r trans with a lockup TQ convertor with a 3500 stall and put in a 410 gear out back and you will be a force to recon with. This is what it is going to take to run with the big blocks. Anything else and you will be too slow. If you don't want to do this then you might as well put in a big block
I did in the mid 90's. Sounds similar to your build and ran about the same times. Life got in the way (married, business, divorced, recession, married, recession, kids) and I never really got it dialed in - I never thought I'd sell that car. It was the last thing to go and if I hadn't, I'd be in this mix with you guys right now. I'm sure it had high 12's and I was a probably a gear change (3.73 to 4.10 was the plan) to going mid 12's. We had virtually NO info. back then - The best tips were seemingly looking at the V6 stuff. Of course Sonny was the man back then. Tom Miller's car was by his own admission basically not streetable and obviously neither is Zane's. After a long hiatus I have 2 GS's I'll be looking to build 350's for - We're all on different timelines for different reasons. There have been other builds on here (the guy who did the stroker for his son comes to mind) and there's a guy on FB (he's a member here too but said he doesn't frequent - can't remember his name and I got off there) that's running sub 12.50's last I saw on a mainly street driven car with 3.42's. But yes, the SBB contingent is small and I think the hallmark of the Buick community over the years is the sharing of information. Obviously GS Johnny is in another class (and let's us know) and I sure hope that we see some more builds go into purpose built chassis - I'd love to build one but I might run out of time in life. I think (hope) that the mighty 350 is about to make its debut on the performance stage finally. The beauty of all this is that we were the guys that believed in these engines and/or wanted to be different. Obviously everyone is frustrated with the timeline - I'm sure no more than TA is. For a lot of guys, the days of going racing regularly are gone, but there are certainly builds that will happen specifically for that purpose as well specifically for street cars and unlike the SBC, unless these things really fly off the shelf, these are the only 350 alum. heads we'll ever see and I assume some compromises had to be made to cater to the entire, very limited at this point, market. In TA's defense, there are limited resources (time & money) when you're in that type of business and weeks turn into months turn into years. Been there, done that. You lament over the lost opportunities. It's going to take a little time to get a few sets of these on the flowbench, then on the dyno and then on the track and it doesn't seem like TA has even had a chance to dyno them yet - I don't get the feeling they're holding out. Maybe they should've before releasing them but I'm sure they wanted to get some sets out there ASAP - Not for the $, but for the development. Mike was originally a 350 guy too I believe and IIRC he wagon went 11's back in the late 80's with a 350. We know SBB builds don't happen overnight. Scotty will do his thing too and hopefully we'll be able to buy an optimized set. Everyone's been patient and now that they're here, that patience is... Enjoy - This is all exciting and what we've all waited SO long for.
I've stayed out of this conversation because for what I do I can not use these heads. But I have a few thoughts. First, Thanks TA for making these and giving guys an option to iron heads. They designed and built what they believe they could sell the most of. That is what most 350 builders could use. I am a guy that works with facts and data and would like to see some dyno proof that these will add power right out of the box over a stock iron head. Then people can decide if they can justify the cost. We know the weight savings alone should be worth a tenth in the quarter. Next, What Sean is doing is great but has no meaning to what 99% of other people would do with these. These are very close to stock heads made from aluminum. You are not going to see a quantum leap over iron heads either stock to stock or ported verses ported. If they gained 30hp I would be surprised, actually shocked. If you need to have the aluminums ported for maximum gains then you could just have irons ported with less involved. Iron heads are dime a dozen. My car runs 13.35, completely streetable and can be driven anywhere on pump gas. With iron heads and manifolds, flat tappet cam and street tires. Just a solid combination. As for the single plane intake, again, thanks TA for making these. However nobody to date has truly tested this intake. I believe one of the super stock guys tried it with almost no gain. Everybody else is just driving around saying it feels better but with no data to show that it is. No numbers. I like what Mark is doing but you are not tuning each combo is the max before making more changes. You'll never get the most out of what you have in the 3 or 4 passes you make every time out. And yes, nitrous adds power but 1.5 second on a 75 shot? Seems unbelievable. Not calling anyone out here so don't take offense. We're all trying to do the same thing and improve this design. Again, thanks TA for giving us the building blocks to make improvements to the 350.
Like Steve said, numbers tell the story. Evidently these 350's respond well to prochargers, turbos, and nitrous. Be nice if proven bolt on commercial kits were around. You'd still need all the internal goodies. I myself still want to stay n/a, till I find out what my ported iron head, SP3, big roller cam, stroked, 410 geared setup is going to do. Trying to get this old Buick to beat my Z06.
Maybe TA can post some of their dyno results. This suspense is killing me LOL. But in reality the heads just started to be shipped out so I guess it will be a little while longer before someone who received a set can post some results. Hopefully TA will share some info once they’re out of vacation mode. Hint-Hint.
