The big draw for me to a aluminum head 350 is the weight, a 450lb 500hp engine is very attractive, put that in a 3200lb whatever and it will move out pretty good. 500hp shouldn't be an issue, 11.5 comp, healthy cam, 300cfm heads, sp3 hell how could it not make 500
Are we talking factory block 455 without a jockstrap vs a sbb 350 with both engines using boost? Even with the 455 factory block using a jockstrap, the sbb 350 would more than likely be able to handle making more power without the block breaking than the 455, factory block vs factory block.
Would need more comp and or more rpm than most people feel are "acceptable" more than likely but I'm sure the stuff needed are now in place
I think stick a Procharger on it and be done with it/ add in a good crank and rods and such 650 easily. I do think it can get to 500NA with the good stuff. I hit 395 what's another 100 I hope there are really more than 6% that really want to put this motor on the map. I gave this thing 20+ years of real racing it can handle it. Also if it means anything to anyone when I raced that Mustang that had a supercharger on it I raced him out of low gear but I was not going quite slow enough, I was probably at 3 grand when I punched it to floor. Well the tach went all the way to the rev limiter instantly with the full blown 125 shot of nitrous on and with it dropping every other cylinder in the firing order all I could do was shift into 2nd gear. Now mind you this is all happening in a split second and decision had to be made quickly. But my point is with a good balanced 355 Buick it can handle a nice shot of nitrous, hit the rev limiter and still live another 10 years. BTW I beat that Mustang on that race. Don't screw around when you build this motor go for the max heck with the street. Put a plate on it and drive it on the street. You got new cars that can kick your butt can't have that crap.
I agree with everybody, each person has great input and thoughts. Guy has a great point that just a really well built 355 with no fancy parts can live a very long time and make great power. Jim is right the 350 is never going to compete with a 455 in the $ vs HP war I mean come on that’s just silly. For people who want to see an iron head vs alum dyno comparison there are two options for that: 1. Take a stock 1970 350 and dyno it with STOCK iron heads and then again with the TA heads. It will likely only gain about 20 HP. Then add a bigger cam, more compression etc and sure the gains will increase. 2. Take a purpose built engine re-designed to run 8000 rpm and choke it off with stock non ported heads and dyno that. Then add the TA heads and dyno it again and it will gain 60-100 Hp with no other changes. My point is that this is a tough thing to compare without making things either slanted to the irons or to the alum. Data is a funny thing and it can easily be misconstrued. Okay do having said all that, what if I wanted to make a more representative comparison for a real world audience: I take a stock 1970 350, do some oiling mods, 74 rods, internal balance, home hand ported irons, TA street roller cam, and headers. Dyno that. Then I re-dyno the same combo with nothing changed except the alum heads added... That really is the most realistic test I can see. However since this is a hobby for me and not an occupation I won’t spend the $ it would take to do the above testing. I will do whatever testing I want and if people like it, then great and if not then I don’t care either. If people want to know how much Hp alum heads will add to a stock engine I would guess it won’t be a huge huge amount. Still a large gain but to really see the potential you need either power adders and or a bottom end built to handle 7000 RPM.
The 350 block is largely untested. Yep it's a deep skirt. I get that. Get a pile of them making real power in drag cars- hooking and pulling, not power braking in front of Wendy's, then we'll see the story. And yes, i know there are few guys running decent times with a 350.
Ive been saying it all the while- these heads have to put a NA 350 at the same power level as a warm iron headed 455.
Don't get me wrong here, I hope these new heads are a big success for TA, that's good for all of us... but my observations are based on 20 years of designing and building Buick engines for customers. It's all about the money folks.. I can't see how these heads can be any cheaper than the BB versions, and to get 300 cfm out of them, according to what has been posted here, takes more than just a little work.. your talking about a $3500 set of heads here. At least.. That same money goes a long way toward some serious BB heads, which will make a motor that not only makes the power, but also has the driveablity that most guys want. Larry Hymowitz's motor is a good case in point.. with just a 230* duration cam, it makes over 600 HP, and you don't have to twist the daylights out of it to do it. It gets reasonable mileage on the highway, and will push his 4200 plus pound beast into the mid 11's, in full street trim. The balance between power and driveablity is always a factor, for most of the Buick faithful. Most want a motor that idles reasonably at 800ish rpm, makes vacuum for the brakes, and can handle the AC load with no issues. Is not a pain to live with. Roller cams and alum heads have revolutionized BBB power, with driveablity.. real world stuff, not race cars with lisc plates. The same will be able to be said of the SBB, but the dollars to HP equation is a tough one to swallow for a lot of guys. And your right Sean, we need a honest, box stock to box stock comparison, same motor, same build, just the head upgrade. The key customers for these heads, to make them a financial success, are not those who are going to build an exotic piece, with enough camshaft and expensive lightweight components, to support extremely high rpm operation. Those guys are a given.. and precious few in number. It's the guy who is looking to freshen up his 350, add a little cam, and these heads, in stock or near stock form, and those are the numbers we need.. if it is 60+ HP, I can sell that... if not, then that will make it more difficult. JW
Look carefully at the bottom end of a SBB.. the deep skirt is not attached to the main caps in any way, I would contend it is no stronger in the main area than a BBB. Just different. Strong deep skirt blocks have six bolt mains.. where your actually using that extra material to stabilize the main webs, via cross bolts from the skirt material to the caps. The ability of the 350 to stay together at higher rpm more reliably has more to do with the small bore size, and inherently lighter pistons. Most 455 block failures in modest output engines, can be attributed to the heavy TRW slugs that kind of motor was saddled with for years, back when there were few piston choices, and is exactly why when I spec'ed out the 470 pistons, the internal superlight milling was added to the base piston.. it makes the piston more expensive, but it's a good investment. At just over 600 grams, they are the lightest on the market for that type of piston. JW
IMO, where these heads will really shine, is in boosted applications. The 3.8L GN block is the same basic skirt design as the 350, and they make big power with the heavy stock pistons and the aftermarket TRWs before driving over the crank. With a girdle and lighter pistons, watch out.
With boost you don't need good head flow of course it helps and will allow more power to be made with less boost, but you can always twist the knob for say 5 more lbs and pick up way more than good flowing heads would have provided you. I think if there is really nice CNC program dialed up for it and some nice roller cam kits put together for it that dont break the bank, then you could sell "packages" like the LS camps do and all the other suppliers out there. Just provide a solid bottom end with xx compression ratio and you will see 450~550 hp for x amount of money. Take the quesswork out of it and more people will buy To be honest this approach should have been taken years and years ago with the 455 platform
Alot of mallory slugs needed to internal balance that. About $600+ when it's done, not including stroking or grinding mains. Then you still have a cast crank. IMHO Not worth it. Billet crank is way to go for internal. I have $400 in two slugs & balance, $225 for stroking, plus a lot of extra drilling & dicking around, that's with light everything. Ask JW about going internal on these engines.
Small market stuff again Ethan.. To CNC a set of heads, one set at a time, is expensive.. guys with 5 axis machines, who have hand ported a head, and then digitized it, then created it in the CNC software, figure they have something valuable.. and they do.. Average cost on the CNC work, is about $1100, before the final hand blending.. which is often needed. I personally have seen dramatic improvements on "CNC" ported Buick heads sent here, for use in a build. Typically the folks doing them, get overheated about the port work, and forget all about the chambers.. To cut that price substantially, then you have to do quantity, and there is no two ways about it, your going to tie a portion of your operating capital up in parts that you might n0t sell for years.. If I had them on the shelf, I might be able to sell, maybe half a dozen sets a year in a really good year, probably more like maybe 3... if I have to do 20 sets to get a price, then your talking about a multi year commitment here. Wish I could do it, but I would have to start buying lottery tickets.. So we do the mild to moderate work by hand, and the guys who have to have the full boggie... pay for it. That being said, I do have at least a dozen BBB combos, complete with dyno results, from mild street, thru the 1000 HP Tomahawk we had on the dyno late last year.. Those are typically advertised in complete engines, but I could advertise just the head and cam package. I will keep that in mind as I continue to create the new TSP website. Thanks JW
Ya.. I tried to talk Marty out of it, before I ordered that internal balancer/flexplate from BHJ for him... but you know, "The customer is always right"... .... and he is not wrong, just a little lighter in the wallet than I think is required. Until someone shows me a dyno sheet that proves differently, the SBB engine is a 6000 rpm deal, in street trim, I don't care what heads are on it... that of course changes with boost.. about 800-1200 rpm as the boost pushes the torque curve up. You start turning these 350's above 7000 on a regular basis, I predict a lot of oil pan rubble.. I have a twin turbo 350 that we just started up, less the turbos, on a Holley HP EFI/DIS system.. Hopefully I will be dynoing it this week NA, and then we will put the Burton manifolds and turbos on it, and see what it does to the torque curve. If it is anything like the boosted BB's I have seen, it will raise it about 1000 rpm.. those are the motors that need to go to 7k.. JW
Another reason I went to a billet crank but I see your point. External balance is fine for 5000 rpm or less but i wouldn’t expect an engine to live at 7000 rpm with an external balance... just my opinion...
I would agree with you on that Sean.. which is why every race motor, I build here, designed to run that high, is internal balance. JW
so let me get this straight this thread is several years old which has ascertained 73000 views which is primarily wondering when are the heads coming out if they are coming out. ....within less than a week let's not confuse with several years that Facebook video with a 350 with the heads on it already has 21,000 views and we're not even in a week. Apparently the social media can reach out far more people. Depending on the pages settings anyone can view the page. I am pretty sure ta performance does not have twenty one thousand members on their Facebook page. I am pretty much sure it's open to the public to view. In fact, most of these companies pages are open to the public for people to browse.
ah... I see, on TA's facebook page.. I though it was only on that Buick 400/430/455 all performance group private forum that is on fb ...where I saw it ... I wasn't even aware they had one.. Yup, will get good short term counts, unless they figure out how to pin it.. It's actually on youtube also.. JW
