Broke the housuing on one of the LT1/LT4 style starters a few years ago when I put the roller cam in. I dropped the distributor in a tooth off and got a backfire that killled the starter in short order. When I installed the next LT1/LT4 starter I used a piece of thick wall angle aluminum to make a brace to support the tail of the starter (like a factory starter would have) so that it cant flex so much nose to tail. My inspiration for that little project was someone posting how they broke their block where the starter bolts up. A $50-$75 starter isnt a big deal but busting a block with a bunch of machine work in it is no joke!
One of the biggest problems I’ve seen yet for starter breakage is poor quality hydraulic lifters that bleed down. What happens is, after you shut the engine off, the oil is thin and the lifters bleed down. Then, when you go to re-start, the intake valve closes far too early and the cylinder pressure is insane, which can lead to preignition on a hot engine. The fuel vapor blown off and racks the engine backwards. Ever notice how sometimes on cold/hot start up the lifters clatter like hell? On cold starts, the engine is so lean from the fuel evaporating, the same thing can happen. One thing that you can try in either case is to pump the throttle a few times before cranking. This will reduce the vapor flash and may require a few rotations before it starts. Ultimately, solving the lifter problem is the key. On some B.B. Chevy stuff, I’ve given up on the hydraulics and had guys put solid rollers on their hyd profile cams. It cures the problem. You can reach in the window and pop the car right off by turning the key, even after a good heat soak. In solid lifter high compression engines, the pumping trick will stabilize them on startup too in many cases.
Good suggestions ben and Ken. It's a mini starter so it falls way short of the factory hole to fab up a support brace, but ill look into it. MN gs455, I'm using T.A lifters, so that isnt the problem, and i cant pump the throttle because its fuel injection.
Ben, the bolts are brand new starter bolts, so they have the knurled, I replaced the timing chain 2.years ago, so it should be o.k now. I think I will look into the start retard like you use
I use the msd 6520 box, just turn the rotor knob to v8 retard related number and it's done. the only minor fall back is the timing retard goes away after box sees I think 800 rpm, then any time the engine drops below I think 500 rpm the timing gets pulled back out. so basiclly it needs to idle over 800 I have also used these on several other street motor builds and both have liked the improved smoother idle, and cooler idle temps that running more timing at idle provides. on my personal car my exhaust temps dropped almost 500 degrees when I locked my timing out. when we first did this I had a Mallory distributor that I pinned, but msd are easy , they provide you an option for this, even locked out a plain stk hei a couple of times the only thoughts I can think of is too make sure all the clearances between the starter and flywheel are correct, make sure the gears are meshing in proper contact
If the timing is being controlled by the EFI, isn't the distributor locked out during set up? I second the check of clearances between the pinion and flex plate. That was a problem on my motor with the particular SFI flex plate I was using. My solution was the Robb Mc starter. You can adjust the clearance with that starter, not so with the stock/mini starters.
Yeah the EFI controls my timing, it is locked out and set 15 degrees before TDC. (So does this mean a start retard system wont work?) . It looks like the pinion could have been closer but not alot. Just weird that it was good for 2 years, now not good? Also I think I stated earlier, when my car sits for extended periods of time like it does in the winter, initial starts are very hard (sometimes flooding, but usually it involves minutes of starting, dying, starting, dying), putting undo stress on starters.
I might be wrong here........but efi cant add timing beyond where the max timing is set at the dustributor. I ran through this with my msd grid. computers controlling a distributor can only take timing away...... so even though you might have your program set to go as high as 40, if you only have the distributor set to 15.....it cant go more. the computer reacts to the source triggering it.......the computer cant guess accurately when the next trigger pulse will come. so you have to sync your table and program to the actual distributor timing reading. the same reason you have to lock the distributor out, if something is swinging in there the computer and predict what it will or wont do, or when it will do it. on my grid I had mine set to 42* by my light, told the table that was my max. then went into the program and set timing below 300 rpms to 15*. Ramped up to 35* at 600 and beyound.........then I had an overlay table that it ran on after I applied the transbrake to give me more timing on launch and I pulled some out as the rp.s went up. then went back and verified when I changed the program i got the correct timing reading I wanted. but my dist was still triggering at 42, just the program pulled out to what I had it programmed too..........but if I ever wanted 50. there would be no way to get it without moving the distributor. now I cant see any reason I would ever want 50 the number was just used as an example. if you never went through and synced you max timing on your table to that actually on the motor. your program might be 15 but who knows where it really is. now I dont know on your efi set up if you can go in and tinker with the timing tables as much as you can on the grid. but I would guess there is away to not have you efi control timing and still do the fuel. if so you can just let the 6520 box do its thing depending on what class I race I can use my grid sometimes and sometimes I cant so when not I have to just set timing to 35 and leave it. I'm going to get my crank trigger done soon that it will be alot harder( or at least take longer ) to swap timing setting. but will be alot more accurate. on my grid frigging off the distributor the trace line looks fuzzy but on buddy's that run it on a crank trigger his is thin and clear, I assume it actually seeing the space between the gears on cam and dist and slight play in timing set
When I installed my Rob Mc starter, the instructions had me measure between the pinion and flex plate. Spec was 1/16-3/16. Mine was almost touching so I shimmed it back 1/8”. The starter was grinding otherwise. Now it is silent. You can’t do that with a stock starter.
It should not have a hard time starting after sitting a while with fuel injection (or a carburetor after the float bowl has filled). Are you sure that the cylinders aren't filling with raw fuel, hydraulically locking the engine? Check ecm data, especially coolant and map sensors. Maybe put a fuel pressure gauge on it to see if the pressure drops after the initial pump prime. Maybe an injector is leaking down.
I have a fuel pressure gauge (2 actually 1 in the atomic and an external). The external seems to stay at 55 psi but the atomic gauge will bleed down during starting. Larry, I'm having my last starter rebuilt (its only 150 to rebuild compared to a 300$ starter). Its a beast of a starter, I'll look into the pinion depth closer. I just dont want to break my block again. It's one thing to keep breaking starters, but if I break my block again, I'm done
possibly, but when I use the car regularly I have no issues, it only seems to give me trouble on hard starts. thinking maybe ill replace the plugs and wires, maybe old wires and plugs are throwing the timing out of phase?
No, Tommy means that the rotor might be out of phase. Take an old distributor cap and drill a hole in the top behind the #1 tower, Mark the center of the rotor tip, and use your timing light to see where the rotor tip is in relation to the tower.
Ok. I did this last time, I'll check it again. The rotor is set 15 degrees before TDC (adjustable rotor) and the engine is rotated 15 degrees BTDC. so I still want the rotor to be on top of the #1 terminal when firing?
Just for good measure, are you certain that you are not loosing cranking voltage? That is a common cause of kickback. Battery wire size, ground wire size, all connections, battery itself, all key here. Loss of cranking voltage also would likely limit voltage to your MSD system and exacerbate the kick back issues.
Hi Dan, I have had the same issues as you on my Tomahawk engine. 4 starter motors, 3 flexplates. I thought it was an alignment issue. Thought it was a phasing issue................ I had a seperate issue with my Stg2 TEs heads. I run Evans waterless coolant and every now and then the engine would blow smoke out of the right bank. Turns out that when TA ported my heads back in 2008, the valve pocket wall thickness is paper thin. There was a hair line crack allowing coolant to fill the cylinder when the intake valve was open. When it was turned off after a run and the intake valve was shut, it would pool on top of the valve. When I try to start it again it would hydraulic lock number 4 cylinder and break pinion/flexplate teeth. Since fixing that, I havent had any issues. I did upgrade to '00' welding cable starter cable and went with one of Jeff Strubes Meziere billet flexplates along with the Powermaster Starter motor. If you havent checked you cranking timing, turn off your fuel supply and put a timing light on it while cranking it. Cheers
Be sure to verify no crossfire, especially between #5 and #7. Inspect plug wire condition, plug wire routing, distributor cap/rotor phasing, etc. When the spark is intended for #5, it's easy for it to jump to #7 which has lower cylinder pressure and requires less voltage to cross the plug gap. When (if) the spark jumps to #7, it fires 90 degrees too soon--and if the starter is still engaged, there's tremendous force on the starter nose transferred via the engine flywheel.
