block girdle?

I am planning on building a big block for a possible Regal or GS project soon. I am definately going with Stg 2 heads and I already have the 494ci. rotating assy. I have read and heard from some friends different feedback regarding block girdles. I know a guy locally that has a high compression 455 w/stg 2 heads that dropped about $1500 on machine work alone plus the $500+ for the girdle itself. Is this really neccessary? I have never seen or heard of a Buick loosing a crank or having that much core shift to substantiate that much dough. I also recently read an article about enlarging the oil passages from the crank to the cam journals and lifter gallery. When I ran an Olds engine it was vice versa. It was recommended to install restrictors in the passages to cut back excess oil going to the crank. What do yall think?


Reynold.

 

It's not the crank that goes on a Buick 455, it's the block webbing. :ball:

Never ran a 494, but I've been told that you do need the gridle to hold things together.

I inquired about the 494, but the cost to do it right started to add up big time. Much more expensive than I ever thought.

The cost of the 455 build-up in the October 2001 issue of Car Craft was about 8 grand. you can add cost of the stroker kit, the girdle, additional machining cost for the girdle, and then some to come up with a ball park figure. :ball:

 

What goes on? Do they break or shift? I don't mind doing it if there is a definate need. I ran an Olds engine combo before and was sold lots of crap that I really didn't need after all. I have a few friends that have 455's w/10-12 to 1 compression but don't run a girdle. My plans are for a Stg 2 494,dominator,308s cam,12.5:1 compression. I really stuck on this girdle issue. I also see magazine articles claiming to build a 455 w/500+ hp w/no girdle. I have also seen articles on 455's w/ low (10:1) compression that do run a girdle but don't list it in the parts list.

 

The block webbing is so thin, that it just fails when stressed to far. Just blows out the bottom. Adding a stroker kit just makes it worse.

The combination you describe should put out way more that 500 HP.

The Car Craft 455 build-up did 564 HP. I e-mailed TA about the lack of a block girdle on this, but I have still not gotten an answer.

 

And it doesn't end there.

Now you have to go out and find a 455 block that has cylinder walls that are thick enough to use the 494 stroker pistons.

Not all 455 blocks are capable of using these pistons. :af:

 

Reynold:

You will need a block girdle. You'll twist that block all out of shape with the kind of power you will be capable of building. And all that extra monkey-motion sure isn't good for power or longevity. I'll have to go down to the shop and dig out my receipt for installing my block girdle, but it was nowhere near that $1500 figure. I think it was less than a third of that, but don't quote me til I get the numbers. The crank will be fine its just those main webs that are lame. And the Buicks oil backwards, in that the oil goes up to the cam and lifters first then down to the mains. Since we need the oil downstairs, drilling the main feed holes out is a good thing (as long as it's done right). I wish they ran a separate galley for the mains......But that old Electra engine does pretty good with some good machine work and a little extra TLC. If you've ever taken a look at the bottom side of a 460 Ford or BBC you'll see some serious webs, we can only dream of that, but the girdle gets us closer. In my book its well worth the $$, I sure don't want to try to scrimp somewhere and run the chance of wasting an engine and other expensive parts. I'll dig out those receipts tomorrow.

 

Holy Sh**, machine work costs that much

When I got my block done, possibly since my engine builder had never done a buick 455 girdle before, the machining of the girdle cost more than all of the other parts added up. I dropped $1200 bucks on the whole deal. My advice is spend the dough now, becuase you will then have a bullet proff bottom end, and 3 months from now, you will have forgotten how much the whole deal costed you. It will put your mind to ease if you ever go with better heads, or ever switch cams.

To make the whole process easier, go to a buick established place already, or someone who had done a couple buick 455 girdles before. It will be less time consuming for them since they already have the experiance, thus cheaper

 

tommieboy

You mentioned that not all blocks will take a 494" piston. Are you referring to the thickness at the bottom of the cylinder? I have noticed that every block that I have is different in this area. The same with the lifter journals. I started collecting blocks several years ago because Dave at TA told me that if the lifter journals aren't .250 you can't run a roller.:ball: It would be my luck that the block that I picked to build the 494 has the thinnest cylinders at the bottom:af: I do have two other blocks that I could use but one is too cherry and the other has rather corroded cooling passages. I think that it will be ok.

 

When I was talking to Charlie Evans a couple of years ago at the AM&P booth, he said it would be about $500 to install the TA girdle. I think Mike told me about the same.

ALL motors can benefit from a girdle - especially when you're trying to reach the power levels that are available now!! When the main caps flex, you're bleeding off precious oil pressure!!

It may not be cheap, but it's money well spent!!

Scott

 

No. More concerned about the concealed water jacket areas. Because of internal casting variations from the foundry and normal corrosion from years of use, a thin spot can occur anywhere long the cylinder. You have to have your block sonic tested to be sure.

Should also add that some of the better blocks can take a .060 overbore and not overheat. But those blocks aren't a dime a dozen. You just have to sonic test to be sure.

 

I would look at it like this- $2400.00 for the 494,$2500.00 for STG2 heads,with a total of=$4900.00. Now think if the first time you over rev the engine or even open the monster to breath it could destroy that $4900.00 parts. Thats not even the machine work,cam,block,and oil pan. All of that money down the crapper because you didnt want to spend the money on a girdle. You wouldn't spend a $1000.00 on a rear end and then not put a rear end girdle on it would you? I would look at it as insurance for you motor. Its the only way I can justify spending the money I did on a combo like yours.

Doug

 

tommieboy,

When I have the blocks sonic tested, is there a magic number (thickness) that I should tell the shop to look for? I would rather rely on someone who knows than a machinist who has only done one or two. Also, does anyone know the cost of a set of assembled Stg2 TE heads? TA lists the SE's for $2250. The difference between the two sets bare is only $200. I am wondering if the prices are that close assembled?

 

Magic number? I never really got an answer to that one. I think it depends on how much HardBlok you end up using.

But, I've been told from one person's observations that with the stock 4.3125 bore:

In a bad cylinder, wall thickness can vary from .170" to .060" within the same cylinder. :gt:

In a good cylinder, you are lucky if you get a variation of .130" to .100" within the same cylinder.

Kinda scary, huh!

I remember my Chevy friend complaining when his cylinder walls were slighty less than .200" on his new Chevy performance block. DUH!

 

there IS another option.....

I firmly believe that a TA Perf. girdle is THEE best ...But, P.A.E has a T-356 Aluminum PAN/GIRDLE that would be My second choice, although I don't think that it would add to the rigidity of the block anywhere near the TA GIRDLE. And also, I TOTALLY agree with the other guys who have answered Your post, that with Your HI-HP & HI-DOLLAR combination..........why try to save a grand on the FOUNDATION of Your motor ? By the way....that pan/girdle is also available thru Poston in Atmore, Alabama

 

And.......

And......if You wanna see the pan/girdle, the Man to talk to is Jim Burek......member name " Buick535"....owner/oper. P.A.E.

 

Is it neccessary to use hard block? I have heard of using it in 528"-542" blocks, but I don't know what applications should have it. This another one of those "if it's needed I'll buy it" things. I'm cool with the girdle thing now. I don't think I would have been as comfortable installing one if I hadn't talked with you guys. Right now I am looking at oil modifications between the mains and the lifter journals. I am also trying to decide between the Stg2 SE's and TE's. This will probably be the next thing that I order then the girdle. I've had the 494 rotating assy for several years still in the box. Now I'm getting the itch again. I guess I didn't learn the first couple of times.:spank:

 

Reynold:

I 1/2 filled my block with Hardblok. Its just a .038" over 455. I filled within 2" of the deck. Plenty of water around the top of the cyl. and it will give signifcant rigidity around the lower part of the cyl. When you do a 1/2 fill you need to keep the water jacket openings to the pump open. What I did was use two small (I think they were 1/2" dia.) rubber hoses in each opening and sprayed them with dry teflon spray and inserted them into the two ports at the front of the block, making sure they expended up to the deck and out through the holes in the front of the block. I then packed the remaining area where the hoses stuck out the front of the block with modeling clay, so the goop wouldn't run out. Make sure the block is level fore and aft and side to side (so the deck is absolutely level) and mix and pour. To make sure I got good coverage and no pockets of air I poured in the front, middle and rear of the deck and used a small electric vibrating sander without sandpaper to vibrate the block a little. Seemed to work great. Once it cured I simply pulled the hoses out. Along with the girdle I think it should be a pretty stout bottom end.

 

I hate to sound stupid, but like they say"if you don't ask you'll never know!". I've never used hard block before. I gather that you pour it in through the water jacket holes in the deck? I also assume that this is done with the freeze plugs in place? Also, how do you drain the block if the lower drain holes are covered?o No: I do like the idea so far. It seems simple enough.:TU:

 

Seems to be a common practice among the stroker engines. And like Dave already mentioned "it will give signifcant rigidity around the lower part of the cyl."

The TE's also require the use of the TA's High Port SP-2 intake manifold. So if you've got a SP-1 aready sitting around, well.... :ball: